At wits end 5 yr old and night times

[feekerry]

I have posted a couple of similar posts recently but I am really at my limit now. Can barely talk to dd now which isn't good.
For the last 6 weeks she will not stay in her bed at night. Previous to this have had no issues. If we put her back she has a huge screaming fit and makes herself sick. She shares a bedroom with her little brother who is terrified when she does this. She gets out of bed before she is even fully back in. It's exhausting. Most nights we give up and she comes into our bed. But she doesn't sleep well. Faffs about, isn't enough room for us all in there and she insists on sharing my pillow and tapping me on the shoulder etc.
She has some anixety in the day and won't let me go to the loo etc. I have been to the hv, gp and school and tried all their suggestions. Nothing has worked.
What on earth do I do? We are all so miserable and tired

Oh, and she is probably just old enough to pass the problem bakc to her.

dd - you are tired, I am tired, teacher says you are tired. we are all tired because you are waking up at night and not going bakc to sleep. What do YOU think would help/work? What plan can YOU come up with?

It is interesting to hear what they say, and also she is more likely to have a go if it is her idea. If she says Mummy's bed, then sadly that isn't going to work, but then Mummy will still be tired so we haven't solved the problem.

Why are you fighting this? She's plainly demonstrating how anxious and unhappy she is and you're all for punishing her. Poor little girl.

The anxiety might well be down to a lack of clear boundary and structure about bedtime and sleeping. You have tried everything - as many do - but that gives a really unclear and inconsistent message to her. She's ruling the roost and that's quite scary for a five year old.
No more nice cuddly, "oh dear you've made yourself sick come into our bed". Stick her brother in with you for now - unless you have a dining room or study that could be converted temporarily into his bedroom. Could her brother and father go to relatives for a few days over Easter holidays whilst you apply rules?
Then a very firm message that she will sleep in her own bed. If she cries, she cries. If she screams, she screams. If she's sick she clears it up and does her own washing. No attention at all overnight just a firm grip and back into bed. If she stays in her bed then appropriate praise. If she does it for a week or fortnight then new pjs or quilt cover, maybe but only if she has consistently achieved overnight in her bed.
It's is hard, it is exhausting but a few tough days will pay dividends in a relatively short time. Do not change tack halfway through though. If you go for it you need nerves of steel and absolute commitment.

nutty - she isn't punishing her, she is tryign to find a way to get her to sleep, as dd and mum are both exhausted.

you can't make a five year old clear up her own sick and do her own washing!

nuttykitter I am seriously open to all suggestions hence why have been to school, hv and gp. She has been in our bed for last week now as I can't kee getting up. This has meant she taps me on the shoulder and keeps kicking covers off. It also means dp has to sleep on a put up bed in the living room as not enough room for the 3 of us in our bed (dd says that herself) and dp has to get up for work at 4.50am. So do I just accept they above??? For how long??

I would call in a specialist now, before it gets any worse. Will have a dig around hang on

You could try these guys
www.happysleepers.co.uk

They are all psychologists and take a holistic view

We are having similar issues with our nearly 6 yo dd. Started just after Christmas with her waking up in the night and not being able to get back to sleep but coming through to our room continuously to tell us that she couldn't sleep! We did the whole putting her back to bed thing which got her (& me!) more and more worked up. We had a 'bed' at the side of our bed for a while to try to get some sleep but she was so noisy and kept talking in the middle of the night!! So at the moment we have come to an agreement where if you she comes through to our room we will put her back to bed but check on her every five minutes until she's asleep! Sounds horrendous but mostly she's asleep in ten minutes and only wakes once rather than several times or for hours on end.
She is also quite anxious (caused I think by me returning to work full time late last year) so checking on her reassures her & hopefully in time she will stop needing that reassurance - we are getting a few through nights again. I also bought her some worry dolls that she can tell her worries too before she goes to sleep and we have a cuddle in her bed before she goes to sleep.

Then a very firm message that she will sleep in her own bed. If she cries, she cries. If she screams, she screams. If she's sick she clears it up and does her own washing. No attention at all overnight just a firm grip and back into bed.

Do that to an elderly person - its abuse.

Do it to a small child - it's good parenting.

The world is utterly fucked. Bravo mumsnet.

Have dad do all the returns. All of them. Once she's in bed I would make sure that she never saw you personally again until morning. Does she not want to share dad's pillow or tap him on the shoulder? And if not, I wonder if she sees you as a softer touch? (not meant unkindly).
Have dad take the reigns and then her parents are not abandoning her completely but you're breaking that dependence on you at night time., and she might give it up.

If she's anxious anyway, please don't enact any of the seriously harsh suggestions made above. It obv needs to change, but she's clearly in a state, and you can help her make the change without getting so upset she's sick.

My advice (based on the advice we had when helped by millpond sleep clinic, who are fab):

-Sit her down during the day, not at a stress point, and explain that everyone needs to get better sleep, and to do that she needs to stay quietly in her bed at night. Explain that the sleep fairy will be helping her do this, and will bring her a treat in the morning when she's stayed quietly in her bed.

• First night, just do bedtime routine and remind her of the sleep fairy expecting her to stay quietly in her bed. Then lights off, and stay in her room but not right by the bed, until she goes to sleep.
• If (when!) she comes into your room at night, don't enter into any debate, but just imagine yourself to be a robot. Say kindly but firmly "it's sleep time, "name""; don't use any other words (though you can repeat this if she needs reassurance/tries to argue). Take her back to her bed, don't give cuddles/engage, but if she can't bear you to leave the room, have a chair set up in the corner so you can stay there while she goes back to sleep.
• After a little while, you should be able to phase things so that you sit nearer the bedroom door, then outside the door with it open, etc. But no engagement apart from that phrase, and it has to be COMPLETELY consistent.... You can't crack and be either nice or horrid .
• reward always comes from the sleep fairy, not from you, so it keeps the sleep issue separate from the family dynamic. Reward is a note from the sleep fairy (ideally with a pic of her!), addressed to your DD and telling her well done for staying quietly in her bed. You phase the reward, so start off with managing to mainly stay in bed without too much fussing while you've sat in the corner, etc... You need to keep the encouragement up (through the fairy!).
• absolutely no mention at all of sleep the rest of the time, except a reminder at bedtime.

This worked really well for us, quite quickly, with a DD who was very anxious at the time (and actually had an illness affecting her sleep that hadn't been diagnosed at time!). So i hope it's of some help. You definitely need to take action, but it REALLY doesn't need to be in a way that distresses her. Big hug...I know how grim it is.

And yy, what Tilly said; some of the responses on here are frankly disgusting.

There are some horrible suggestions here. Making a 5 year old clear up her own sick in the middle of the night is the kind of thing she'll be recalling to her therapist in 20 years.

Oyster babe I couldn't agree more. If any of the posters with the harsh suggestions had ever themselves suffered from anxiety (pure gripping fear) they would not be throwing out these cruel ideas. Anxiety as an adult is pure hell. For a child it must be even worse. OP please don't go down that route:( Saying that, I have massive sympathy for you as sleep deprivation is awful. As you know you need to break this routine and fast. The suggestions from Tweedledumb are great. Try those? If I was you I'd be wanting to get to the root cause of her anxiety. Perhaps it doesn't coincide time wise with half term? Perhaps it's unrelated to the time she started all this? Kids arent always black and white like that. Is there something going on with her and the other kids in her class that she's not telling you or her teachers? Or at a club she goes to? Has something changed at home? But not necessarily around the exact time the sleep issues started?

You could aleays co sleep for a bit until the anxiety gets better. Is time in your bed really so awful?
She is clearly upset. I remember once as a teen sleeping on my parents floor one night as i was traumatised about something! I second tryong to find out if anything is wrong at school.

Dd cosleeps with me sometimes when she's upset. She is curently sound asleep in her own bed. I stil have a sexual relationship with dp and we gets lots of sleep. If she has bad dreams or anxiety there is no way im going to ignore her tbh.

My parents bever encouraged cosleeping but if i was really upset i could sleep on their bedroom floor on a matress. Saved loads of fuss. I grew out of it!

malificent - RTFT OP has said she doesn't get any sleep when they co-sleep. And dd doesn't sleep well either.

Is her room dark at night? I have a 4 yo DD who has always been really good at night but about 6 months ago (coincided with starting school actually) she suddenly started calling out for us, she wouldn't get out of bed but would just shout & shout until we went in, once we were there she wanted to go to sleep with us there, eventually she managed to realise it was because it was too dark (she did have a night light btw) so dh put up one of those moon ikea lights next to her bed, now at bedtime she switches it on herself and it is only switched off if she chooses, she now stays in bed and sleeps so much better - only recently did she tell us she was scared int he dark because no-one was there and she couldn't see if someone came in her bedroom

BTW Sorry I kind of rambled but I personally would put a mattress on your floor and let her sleep there, she won't stay there forever but if you all get some sleep surely that's better than it being a battle everynight.