Bringing up bilingual children

[marsup]

I noticed on the thread about 'when do they start staying mama and dada' that a few mumsnetters seem to be bringing up their children with 2 or more languages. Would anyone like to have a regular thread about this, comparing different ages/problems/advice? there seem to be a couple of relevant discussions in the archives, but not a general thread.

My DS is only 5 months so nothing but vowel sounds yet! but we speak French at home.

albert - many many thanks for the offer but we already have that book - and still use it

Sari - good to hear your experience. Will be going to Denmark this summer for 3 weeks (one without DH - he is slightly miffed, but tough) and everybody there will be asked only to speak to us in Danish. We have progressed from words to whole sentences. Being consistant seems the key which I find the hardest as I live, breathe and think in English now - but we'll get there.

MAria Luisa, I have heard about it, apparently the ability to recognise certain special sounds dissapear when they are around 3 yrs old, so if they learned those they will kep them other wise they may be thought to pronounce tham at a later stage but will not be able to recognise the sound. ie. Catalan has various different sounding "e", I don't hear the difference but have been told I do pronounced them correctly which I found extreemely weird!

If anyone is interested this is the the tel no for Young European Book Store 020 7836 6667.

Wow this is amazing - I started this thread on Wednesday, didn't get a chance to look yesterday, and now look what has happened!!! Obviously a lot of mumsnetters are involved with bilingualism in one way or another.

I've just read the whole thread and different names and experiences are all a bit jumbled in my head, but a few people have said something I've also read (maybe in the Bilingual Family's Handbook - can check title and details if anyone is interested - very non-technical book, well-meaning and reassuring; in fact slightly too non-technical for my liking!). Bref, they say that one should always speak one's native language to a child being brought up bilingual. This was what I'd originally intended to do, but there are a few problems. DH and I have spoken French to each other for 10 years, and it would be almost impossible for me to start speaking English to him now just because DS is around. I'm not very good at switching, especially when I'm in a relaxed situation - I like to use one language at a time eg French once I get home. Also I have heard of so many examples of children rejecting the language that is not spoken by their peer group, and since we live in England, I see French as the 'endangered' language - DH is also very worried that his son might grow up to speak to him in some barbarous Germanic language (ie English) rather than civilized French. So I find myself talking to DS in French, which is rather odd: I started learning French when I was 13 and don't have any childhood language! I asked inlaws for presents of cds with nursery rhymes and I've learnt a lot of them. Amazon.fr is great for anyone trying this in French. I think there is a German Amazon as well - not sure how those of you with Dutch or Spanish manage to get books/cassettes/cds! (though I think you can order Spanish things via the French FNAC website). Is anyone else speaking their second/3rd language to their children, and trying to learn babytalk?

I wouldn't generally say that my German is that good, but my baby/toddler related german is - I guess that is why I speak it with DS. I also see german as the at risk language as we always intended to go back to Australia (schooling is better). I can sing songs as well as make all the reasurring and reinforcing comments as well as talk about being tired or hungry, name animals, body parts etc etc. But as DS gets older this obviously won't be adequate, so I think I will have to leave it primarily to DH. We are luck in that we have a circle of german friends at home including kids that are bilingual german.

Marsup - I think it's the consistency rather than who speaks what, ie if you speak to your son in French, then that's fine as long as you always do. That said, I chop and change all the time, especially now they're a bit older and can obviously distinguish between the two languages (well, ds1 can, not so sure about ds2). We were at the playground in the park this afternoon and even when it was just me with ds2 I noticed I was speaking to him in Spanish because that's what we'd all been doing all day.

I also find it's pretty useful for getting cross/bribing etc to have a second language because there are no worries about being overheard and people thinking you're a bad mother! Not that I should be worrying about what people are thinking.

What Marialuisa said about not having any childhood culture in a particular language is something we also struggle with. Dh has no clue when it comes to nursery rhymes, stories etc in his language so the children really know none of those kind of things in Spanish. Whenever I look at Spanish nursery rhyme books they feel so alien to me that I lose interest and revert to English ones which are second nature. I don't suppose it really matters too much, although it does mean that great aunts get looked at blankly by the kids when they launch into the equivalent of Humpty Dumpty.

For books and videos etc we stock up when we go to Argentina and bring back loads. Thankfully everything is very cheap so we can walk in and practically buy the contents of the children's shelves in a bookshop - feels good! That said there's never much of a selection and I refuse to buy books about Disney characters or books that have been translated from English, which doesn't leave much. I should check out the YOung European Bookstore.

Very interesting to read about everyone's different experiences.

Sari, I find it easier to get into the swing of nursery rhymes in French with a cd rather than books. I put it on sometimes when changing ds or when he is too tired to play but not quite ready for bed, and I've learnt a lot that way! Maybe that would be a way for you to get into Spanish childrens' culture?

Aussiesim, schooling better in Austrlia than in Germany???!! I went to school in Australia and to be quite frank, I am surprised at the idea!

Marsup (getting a little off topic but wanted to respond), here is what I what I am basing my information on. PISA is an OECD-sponsored large-scale international assessment of the skills and knowledge of 15-year-old students. Here is their homepage Pisa .

Finland, Japan and Korea scored the best. Girls beat boys in every country in relation to reading - no surprise there I guess. There are probably a few teachers around who will jump in at this point I suspect.

Results (lifted from this report) from 31 countries.

• Reading: Australia 4, UK 7, USA 15, Germany 21
• Mathematics: Australia 5, UK 8, USA 19, Germany 20
• Scientific: UK 4, Australia 7, USA 14, Germany 20

Expats here in Germany from UK, USA and Australia that I personally know are also v critical of German system. My SIL is doing her PHD on a related subject and is working on a European wide team looking at the problems in education.

So Marsup - are you going to ask the MN team for a home on Bilingual kids?

My DH and I are both native English speakers and have been living in Austria since DS was 5 months old. We both speak English at home (our German is very basic!) however DS (now 21 months) has been going to a Tagesmutter (Childminder) 3 mornings a week since he was 14 months old. Three points to add to the thread:

1. DS understands German fully and many of his main words are German.
2. Bi-lingualism has not delayed his language skills at all, compared both to other bilingual contempoaraies in Austria and English only friends. If anything he seems to have been slightly ahead.
3. 95% of todller group we attend are bi or trilingual families. Basic rule is that one parent speaks English and the other speaks their native language. None of the children seem to have problems coping with 2 or 3 languages at this stage. As someone who struggles with a langauges I am so pleased I have this chance to give my DS a 2nd language so effortlessly, he will going to German speaking Kindergarten whan he is 3.

The results of that study are fascinating, AussieSim, and very surprising (to me); when I lived in France the French were always going on about how brilliant the Germans were! (is this a French cultural cringe? surely a contradiction in terms). What is this 'home' on Bilingual Kids business? I'm hardly an expert, anyway - my ds hsa only got up to saying 'argh', and I'm not sure which language he is using!

Lapsedrunner, I'm really pleased that you and others have said your children don't seem to be delayed in learning language skills by their bilingualism; this is one thing people have warned me of and I was trying to prepare myself mentally for a 'slow' learner.

Cannot add much, as unfortunatly am bringing the kids up on my own, so one language at home.

I did live in SA for 13 years, and a close friend here is Afrikaans. She has a 2.5 and 6 month old. I love speaking Afrikaans to them. It help me not forget the language that I took so long to master, and I know that the mom appreciates it, as it encourages the 2.5 to expand her vocab in her other language.

Was in for coffee the other day, and the 2.5 was watching a video in Afrikaans, and I really laughed, it was very old (shown in my childhood) and held "unpleasant" memories of m mother forcing me to watch something that I didn't understand and didn't like!! But after all these years I really smiled at it.

Aussiesim - thanks for that link: fascinating article. I've heard mention made of this (or a similar) study, but I've not actually been able to read the results before. Very interesting.

To ggglimpopo, I'm in Brussels.
Sorry for not replying but I've been offline

If we think that there are enough people interested in brining up their children bilingually then we can ask for our own topic instead of just posting under behaviour/development. If we had our own topic it might encourage more regular posting and would be easier for people to find information. I imagine people would post about recommendations for books, videos, schools, how to deal with kids that reject their second language, how to deal with people that are ignorant and discourage teaching the second language etc etc. One would post the request under Site Stuff.

To those that thanked me for the link on the Pisa stuff - you are welcome. I do think that stereotypes about education systems do persist over time regardless of how they change etc. In defence of the german system I would say that it certainly seems like doing a degree and further study here is far more demanding than it is back home in Oz. It is also far far more common for people to study for their PhD here.

AussieSim - I agree totally with you about asking for a separate topic on raising children bilingually. This thread has shown how many people are doing it, but it's not something that gets much attention and support. Here in Wales, there is lots of info on helping your child to learn Welsh even if you don't speak it. It's actively promoted on tv, in the press, etc. HTH.

Great idea to have a new thread on this.

We live in Italy and dh is italian.......I am English and ds has a full grasp of both languages. He was 2 in April and I am amazed at his language skills......he certainly isnt slow in speaking either language. He watches TV in English and Italian and doesnt bat an eyelid. He seems to take it for granted that there are 2 words for everything eg la casa or the house though he does get his articles mixed up and when it was raining the other day he said,'Mummy, La puggle!!' (puddle)

It's me that struggles with the language!!

BTW......Albert, where in Italy are you???

Oh, I see what you mean, AussieSim. Yes, go for it - why not ask for a separate topic? but maybe it could be 'Language learning/Bilingualism' so that people who want to teach their kids another language but aren't actually able to provide a bilingual environment would also feel free to participate? (just a suggestion - there are after all many kinds and degrees of bilingualism/multilingualism, and 'native speaker' fluency isn't the only one). Does there have to be an official initiator for a new topic?

marsup - Yes, that sounds good. Sorry, I don't know the answer to your last question.

I'll post it on Site Stuff - there doesn't have to be an official initiator. I will include your suggestions for a title, with a link to this thread.

Oh, I'm so jealous. My mother never spoke Tamil to us as babies, even though it's a really important part of her identity (she's now a translator from Tamil FFS!) so my sister and I never had access to an incredibly important part of our lives and heritage...

This is such a great thread, and to think I thought I was the only one with this complication! Actually though we are having to do TRIlingualism, anyone got any advice on that? English, Brazilian and Italian.
Collision, I'm in Venice, in the historic centre, yes boats only, no cars! Makes for a very slow pace of life I can tell you

English, Brazilian and Italian! Albert, yes, trilingualism sounds even more complicated. I learnt some Italian ages ago and then later tried Spanish, and they got awfully mixed up. I think some languages must be easier to keep 'apart' than others. Do you get Brazilian -Italian interferences? (is it not politically correct to say Portuguese anymore?)

We are another bilingual fam - I'm English, dh is Portuguese and our 3 kids have been speaking both languages since the word go. They speak English to me and almost always amongst themselves, Portuguese to their dad and have always gone to Portuguese nurseries and school. Now at 12, 9 and 7 they have no problems in either language, and no delays when they started at school.

I would agree that you should be consistent with who speaks what language, possibly its better to speak your own mother tongue that way they get to hear a richer vocab. Also as mine were hearing a lot of Portuguese as toddlers I made sure I talked a lot to them, and they have been listening to tapes of English nursery rhymes, songs and stories, at bedtime, since they were tiny. They still do, in fact can hardly goto sleep without, but there are some great tapes/cd's of classic stories available so they hear the English language spoken, absorb a bit of culture, and get entertained simultaneously and without effort (especially on my part!)

I'm amazed at what a lot of you there are. And yes children can do it easily, many of my children's friends are speaking a different foreign language to each parent and Portuguese at school. And yes I'm sick of Euro 2004

Albert, we are raising DS with three languages (Spanish, Catalan and English) he is only 15m and knows very few words but the other day while I was putting his pijama on he said "good boy", later said Thanki twice and this morning he said Dog, I asked at the nursery if they have heard him saying these words and they told me they haven't but told me he said many others. (???)