What is the boundary between "full of life" and "misbehaving" children?

[Chandra]

OK, I have been wondering about the border line between these two concepts for some time but today it has gone a bit too far.

I have a couple of friends who have a 7 and 8 year old girls which are, as my friend describe them, full of life: They are always running, playing, fighting and screaming at each other, however in all they liveness they have damaged part of my house, scared my baby to death in every visit and even the dogs are afraid of them. They sometimes are, in my opinion, a bit too cheeky for my taste but today I found myself speechless:

They just arrived home from the swiming pool and one was wearing just her nickers and a vest, she run into the kitchen, stand in front of me, screamed something I didn't understand and show me her genitalia.

Isn't she a bit too old to do this? Even though she just looked her usual cheeky, didn't seem to have an emergency or be distressed in anyway, I someway feel like she was trasspasing the line into misbehaviour, or probably they have trasspased it long ago and I have not realised about this? What do you think?

Any child that frightened my dog and baby has gone over the boundary into misbehaviour. Full of life makes you smile, misbehaviour does not
These girls sound quite horrid, and I am impressed at your tolerance Chandra, cos I would have said something by now. As for showing you her bits and screaming at you, yes, very much too old for this - quite alarming really

Lisa thank you very much for saying that, I was really worried that I was becoming a horrid woman in terms of children tolerancy.
I understand that kids will be kids but why so many mothers only say that their children are full of life while happily seeing how their children are this rude without intervening?

Well, talking in terms of being rude to the visits or vandalising the house they are visiting... not other genitalia shows in the past, thanks God!

That sounds way beyond the 'full of life' category! Full of what kind of life I wonder ... Did you tell your friend what the 'flasher' one had done? She ought to know at least because the girl might do that in front of the wrong person and get herself in a lot of trouble.

It's a difficult boundary to work out. We have a friend's ds here sometimes who's almost 3 and he systematically trashes our flat from top to bottom while his mom looks on proud of his 'spirit' as she calls it. Personally I wouldn't let dd do half the things he does but dd's a very different temperament so probably wouldn't do that anyway, and as there's no malice in him I just let it pass. But what you're describing goes a bit too far and especially when the girls are so much older.

I don't expect my 3 year old to behave immpecabbly and not throw food around or scream or even trash our house. But he is old enough to start learning some boundaries and manners. By the time he was 8 I would expect him to be polite, respect other people and their possessions as an absolute minimum.

By the sounds of it these girls are undisciplined not "full of life"

i agree with kaz, is there anyway you could talk to their mother?

I think as well, that you don't need to be afraid of setting boundaries for them in your own home. You can tell their mum that that's what you're going to do as well; rather than being annoyed by their behaviour, just tell them to stop it: "Auntie Chandra doesn't allow that, Darling" in your best fifties voice... children are very good at differentiating between boundaries, and understanding that certain behaviour that might be tolerated at home, will not be in other places, and vice versa.

Difficult one. I have a godson whose behaviour has been appalling in the past (he's 8) and, tbh, I don't invite him round anymore, not least because he was quite rough was DS2 was newborn and sometimes he doesn't realise that younger children have to be treated differently. There are always lots of jokes about how "lively" he is but I worry that he is going to get himself into a lot of trouble when he's older.
Chandra, I think your friend's daughters are too old to be behaving like this too - but what can you say when you want to stay friends?

I have not tried to spoke to the mother regarding this incident because I think she is not able to see a problem with that, once in the past while we were having dinner they started making fun about their genitalia and making drawings about which of them had the bigger boobs, I understand that children have to explore their sexuality at certain time of their lives but it did surprise me that her mother didn't stop them even when it was making the rest of the party feel a bit uncomfortable.

She is a good person but... it's a bit difficult to cope with her girls, I am somewhat embarrassed to accept the fact that since some time ago I am avoiding to see her when I know the girls are around...

I'm with MeanBean - your house, your boundaries, asserting yourself with probably work with the kids although not sure if it will go down so well with your friend!
Otherwise, try to meet at venues other than your house!
I have been horrified by the behaviour in my house of the children of a vicar (!!!) aged 6 and 8 (my dd was 3) whilst their parents just smiled on. NEVER AGAIN! Luckily these are not close friends so not really a problem - you have my sympathy on this!

I have thinking about this overnight... should I tell the mother about it? or is it better just to forget it and continue avoiding them?

So have I chandra! I think Meanbean's right. While they're in your house, you can set boundaries (especially if their mother is not going to)Something along the lines of "We don't behave like that in this house" and telling the child that they won't be welcome again if they continue - rather than the mother. Let us know how you get on as I could use some tips!

It's difficult, Chandra, to know what / whether to speak to their mother. But I do think you could tell the mother about the one showing you her genitals. Surely any mother would need to know about that just for safety's sake?

I really don't want my friend to get offended or think I'm completely the opposit to open minded, I guess I will wait for another one and then let her know. The "flasher" is her favourite of the two with a huge(painful0 difference, she is so blind to what she does that I'm worried that she become too defensive if I dare to make a comment but in the other hand I don't think that as a friend you are supposed to quietly endure the horrible manners of your friend's children...

HEre comes an update, yesterday I was talking to my friend and she said something that made me think it was the correct time to let her know that her daughter flashing, she took it very well and thanked me for telling her about it and also said that she would have word with the girl.

Today, however, she asked me why I have not told anything to her daughter, and I said "Well I did, I only said that was not nice and continued talking with your other girl" then asked me how did the girl toke it and I just answered "well, she just laughed", she was a bit anoyed with this, she said I should have been harder on the girl and reprimand her about it.

I'm not quite sure how does this work, I would feel comfortable about telling the girl off because she is jumping on the bed or climbing over the table but I don't think it's a good idea to reprimand somebody else's girl about showing her genitalia probably because what is OK for me could be terrible for other parent or visceversa, so I only said that talking about sex and "private" parts was something for the parents themselves as it was a very delicate matter (I think that this is one of the issues in which we as parents are very different).

She didn't seem to be completely convinced, I don't think I am wrong but I though it would be interesting to see what do you all think about this.

Well, it seems I am talking to myself about this... however I would welcome any comments.

So far I have had taken the following:

• An incontrolable pair of 8-9 years old who trash my house, scare my baby and mistreat my dogs.

• A flashing episode when one of them decided to show me her genitalia.

• A talk to her mother about the incident

-A mother telling me off because I didn't reprimand her daughter about it as she would have liked

and finally...

• Friend has forced her DD to apologise to me... even though I found the action rude (and normally think the girl is quite horrid) I believe that forcing her to appologise was not only unnecessary but highly humilliating (draging the girl from the kitchen, and forcing her to say I'm sorry when she obviously didn't want to, the full episode lasted for several minutes as girl didn't want to apologise and mother won't let her go until she said sorry, at the end she said sorry and run in tears to her bedroom).

• Mother said she feels it was the correct thing to do, I think it was awful for the girl, and I did also felt so uncomfortable, I would have never dealt with such a situation in this manner... I really regret telling the mother about the incident and in the future will only visit/invite friend when girls are not around... I'm fuming.. am I right to be angry?

I think the equation goes:

MY children are full of life, YOUR children are misbehaving, THEIR children are brats.

Thannk you frogs, unfortunately I'm starting to see the equation as "their children are full of life, my children is misbehaving, and your children (or this friend's children)are brats"

I'm with you on this one Chandra, would hate to be the cause of someone dragging their kid in to apologise in a stagey manner days after the event. If the parent was around at the time and said 'say sorry' that's different, but your friend went a bit OTT. Maybe she was embarrassed and going overboard in demonstrating that she is a responsible mum?
I'm also with you on the reluctance to put up with horrid destructive children who attack your baby or your dog in your house. IMO any child who mistreats a younger child or an animal should be stopped, told off with an explanation and punished immediately. That's serious. If they are able to get away with pulling a cat's tail they'll probably start to think cruelty is amusing (it gets a reaction) and graduate to enjoying hurting animals and then people (people who are cruel to animals are usually violent to people too). What's more if they taunt animals they might get bitten some day; not all dogs are as tolerant as yours must be.
I've got friend's kids who are like this (luckily not close friends) and I've actually stopped seeing them because even in other people's houses it was too much for me. Just couldn't relax around these boys who charged through the place shouting at top volume and breaking everything in their path. I was constantly leaping up to grab things before they injured themselves or damaged someone/ something. Actually my niece and nephew-in-law have been a bit like this in the past and it has meant I've avoided inviting them round. Sad bit true. Do you actually enjoy spending time with this friend? Is she important to you? If so, you might want to put up with her kids but maybe keep it to her house or neutral ground like the park. If not, then you could just stop seeing her...

I seriously could not deal with having children like that around me and more importantly around my children. I have had to distance myself in the past from friends with unruly children as I got so wound up with the damage to the house and basically the lack of disciplining on the parents part. In future can you not arrange to meet in a neutral place, such as the park? A lot less hassle for you!

Weird that this thread has come up again as I have to take DSs to aforementioned naughty boy's house tomorrow for his birthday... I am going to keep my eyes on him big time and tell him off if he behaves badly towards them - even if it's not in my house. Thank you everyone for helping me to be more confident about it!
(apologies for Chandra for nicking your thread but it's really helped me too!)

Thank you for your comments, I'm a bit confused in away I'm really fed up with the girls' behaviour on the other hand, my friend is a good person, she is a good friend and she is passing through a bad patch and I don't think is fair to disapear at the moment. So difficult decision.

DS will be OK as long as they don't scream too much, and I think their mother will stop them if they were getting very near to DS. The dogs... that another story, I think I should start a new thread about how to explain your friends that your dogs, as small and cute as they look, are not toys and children (and their mothers) can not expect the dogs to behave themselves if the kid becomes nasty to them...

Hi Tommy I was wondering about how the things with your godson would be, does he seem a bit better?

Chandra, that sounds like a nightmare, that apology scenario I mean. I think you're completely right that humiliating the girl in front of you (and embarassing you in the process) isn't a good solution. Your friend needs to explain to the girl that her behaviour is out of order rather than shaming her. Like others have said maybe it's a good idea to only see her with her kids somewhere like a park or at her house. I can imagine it's very difficult, especially as you obviously care a lot about your friend.

Hi Chandra - no better but I decided that I wouldn't allow him to behave badly today! It was his birthday and we went round for tea and cake etc. One of his friends had bought him...wait for it..a cross bow Obviously a toy one but pretty dangerous IMO. He had taken it out of the packaging but my friend hadn't taken it off him!
He was actually using it indoors and I went up to him and said very quietly said "If you do that thing anywhere near [DS1] or [DS2] I will take it from you and stamp on it. Is that clear?" I thought no-one else had heard but my friend said "Well done Aunty (me)" He was really shocked but I hope I got the message over to him. What I really can't understand though is why my friend allowed him to have it in the first place. Also, she seems to just raise her eyebrows in a "Oh,he's so naughty" sort of way and yet she is so sensible in all other areas of her life. I know it was a present and everything but I hope I would have said something like "Lets put that away and play with it later" - it was an entirely inappropriate toy to have when there were lots of children including a baby and toddler around. Mind you - what does it say about the parent who allowed their child to but it for him in the first place?
Rant over