DS misunderstood

[SummerJoy2]

Hello everyone,
I have a gorgeous, beautiful little 4 and a half year old boy.
But I have a problem with the way his behaviour changes (for the worse) whenever we are with friends/family.
When he's just with me, or with me/husband(daddy)/little sister, either at home or out and about, he's an angel. He's talkative, engaging, funny, delightful, caring, sharing, affectionate, he does everything he's told or asked to do, frequently tells us he loves us and freely gives us hugs and kisses, he's adorable with his 2 year old sister.....he's just lovely. He's intelligent, sensitive, insightful and extremely observant.
However..........whenever I get together with friends, whether it be friends with no children or friends with their own children, his behaviour changes dramatically and I can't work out why. He suddenly becomes badly behaved, shouts, screams, cries, acts up, tantrums. Then as soon as we leave them and we're back on our own again he goes back to his normal calm and peaceful self.
I've asked him why this happens but he says he doesn't know. It happens with all different friends in all different types of settings. He also does it with my husband's family who live hundreds of miles away so we only see them twice a year, so they just think he's awful! So much so that my SIL phoned my DH to tell him our DS obviously has 'problems'.
What upsets me is that he's truly the most lovely boy, but none of my friends/extended family see this. They all think he's a badly behaved hard work child, and I can see by the expressions on their faces what they're thinking about him when he acts up in front of them every time we meet. Their tone of voice is quite clipped when they talk to him and they don't display any affection towards him (whereas they do to each other's children). None of them ever see the way he is that me and my husband see him being. This applies to all my different friends and their children. My best friend has two 11 year old boys and I overheard them telling her they dread seeing us because they don't like my DS. Another close friend has an 8 year old and a 6 year old boy and they say the same thing to her - she explained to me that her boys don't like 'lots of noise' and she has kept play dates to a bare minimum as a result.
If they saw how my DS is when he's just with me, or me and immediate family, they would all see how nice he is, but because he changes so much in other people's company no-one sees how he really is.
He's always been well socialised, we've always attended playgroups, gone to parks and other children's activity places, he goes to nursery twice a week. Nursery staff say he is a joy to have with them and is amongst the best behaved children there, never any outbursts in behaviour.
My husband and I come away from every social situation saying ''did you see the looks on everyone's faces?! How embarrassing!" after yet another bad behaviour display. It makes us look like we have an unruly ill-disciplined child, when in fact the reverse is true.
Does anyone have any experience of this or could offer any advice?

Schwabischeweihnachtskanne
Thank you, at last, a helpful answer. You actually give really good ideas. Thanks for the positivity. I was starting to drown in the previous negative posts.

That's nice. I posted in kindness. Tried to show how I helped DS socialise. And I get accused of low IQ! Nobody accused of you being a bad parent. People just pointed out, kindly, that perhaps he isn't 'misunderstood'!

''Also, if I was your friends and family I would think you were a slightly ineffective parent. I know different children have different temperaments but I found it maddening when a child is misbehaving and the parent tries to explain it away or deal with it ineffectually''
Is this kind?

Yes. I called you slightly ineffective. You admitted you were slightly ineffective. I am trying to show you HOW other people might perceive YOU rather than your son. That's why I am being kind. I am not saying your son is an irredeemable brat. I am saying that in the moment how you deal with it has caused people to possibly to misunderstood your son. Which is what most people have said.

I suspect your anger stems from the fact that this is not nice to hear. But it means you have a concrete plan of action which I outlined above. And was met with abuse.

And yes it is maddening if a kid is repeatedly tantruming and the parent is not dealing with it in the moment. Which you told us you didn't do. It doesn't make me cross towards the child, it makes me cross towards the parent because I think that if the parent did tackle it we would have a nicer time.

The unkind thing would have been to say: you are to blame. Your kid is spoilt. It is your fault that people don't like your kids. Etc etc etc. That's unkind and not constructive.

i tried to be kind, show you how it appears for other people and gave you constructive steps. When your anger has settled perhaps you can go back and read the posts again. For your son's sake and his relationship with his family.

The biggest mistake you are making is by telling him how to behave AFTER the event, you you need to be clear on boundaries and behaviour before he is in that situation.

The reason he is behaving this way is the simple fact he doesn't want to share the attention you give him with others. Of course he behaves at school, they have firm boundaries and you are not there.

The thing is you draw more attention to his behaviour by not telling him off then and there. Most 4 yos will act up now and then ..that is expected. What's also expected is the parent to intervene.it probably doesn't help that they know you won't do anything about it so them and their kids have to put up with whatever he does. Plus he needs instant and precise correction of specific unwanted behaviour. Telling him later won't help unless you are very very specific and mention every incident and why it's not ok to behave like that. For example running around shouting in a park fine...running around shouting in a flat,not fine.
It's very possible that your friends are not fed up with him and his behaviour,but they are fed up with you not doing anything about it.

P.s. If we were friends,i would be one of those horrible people that feature in some threads here, telling him off myself

Sorry different situations have different rules. You are teaching your child that there are no rules with you are socialising, he can do what he wants. My dd was able to pick that up when she was only five weeks old. She would cry a lot when we were out, because I responded so much quicker to her than when we were at home. Then when she was two, us mothers used to stay chatting at pick up at the nursery and our children really misbehaved because we were embarrassed to tell them off in front of the nursery staff. Your ds is not stupid, he does know and you are not teaching him how to behave when you are with your friends and relatives.

So OP, what are you going to do? Are you going to follow the advice given on this thread to better manage your son's behaviour, and to stop any bad behaviour immediately?

He wants your attention.
He behaves badly and you don't discipline him but leave. So he has your attention. His bad behaviour gets exactly what he wants.
This needs to change.
He's not misunderstood at all!

I agree with the others. He isn't misunderstood, however you are mishandling the situation.

Imagine you're at the park. Your ds is playing nicely with friends. One of the friends snatches something off your ds, then hits him. Their parent sees this and doesn't respond at all. Maybe she says something about "having a word later". What do you think? Do you think: "That's okay she'll talk to him later and he'll understand he shouldn't do it"? Maybe the first time.
When this is the third time and the friend has done that or similar each time, you probably start avoiding. And you will think the friend is badly behaved and the parent ineffective.

I understand that it is hard to tell off in front of others. I don't like doing that. So I always remove first. You remove the child, by picking up and carrying out if necessary at that age, take them to a quiet place and tell them exactly why it's not acceptable and also tell them if they go back in and apologise then they can go back and play, but next time you will just go home.
You take them back in and make sure they apologise loudly and clearly. You then apologise to your friends and say that you will be taking him home if he does it/anything else again. Thus both warning them you might just leave, and letting them know you're dealing with it. You then carry it through.
If you leave you also do consequences at home. Not major, but you don't arrive home and give him huge amounts of attention.

I have had to actually leave by doing this once in three children. However because you have let things slide, I suspect you will have a bigger fight on your hands.

There is also the possibility he does have more issues. It could be that he is overwhelmed in certain social situations. He may be fine in nursery because he's been going for longer and it's more structured/he knows what to expect/you aren't there.
However even if that's the case, you aren't helping by not dealing with it. Children need to know where the boundaries are and feel more secure knowing that.

I DO think he is misunderstood.

He sounds similar to my dd. From the moment she was born everyone around her expected her to be like her older sister. Calm, passive, easy to take anywhere, adaptable etc.

And she just isn't. She is sensitive and anxious. Lots of people & lots of noise overwhelm her. Because she is expected to be to be polite/well behaved/talk only when spoken to/be quite when not being addressed/not ask for anything/not refuse anything (foods)/clear her plate/wait hours for adults to decide when she does something (eat/open presents at Christmas) etc.

In reality, she has sensory issues, and the rules around what she can/can't do literally overwhelm her to the point that she doesn't actually know what she should be/can be doing. And she reacts. And many talks about how we handle this make no difference, because she promises to try again, to not do x/y or z, but in truth, she just cannot do it because I believe she has little control over it.

Last Christmas she was allowed to take her ipad on Christmas day, I relaxed all rules around what was to be expected of her, and it was lovely, whereas before, family gatherings were torturous for me & her.

This isn't solely about your parenting, op. This might not be fixed with more discipline, or more rules, or time outs, or whatever. My older dd was parented the same, and I described her above. For my dd, this is probably more about autism (pending dx) than my parenting.

My DS gets anxious around lots of noise/ lots of tall adults.

I can tell when it is happening because he starts running around like crazy and yelling/being boisterous.

If this happens I ask him if he is feeling funny about all the noise and he often says yes - we go out and get some air. I also bring a tablet so that he can put headphones on and watch something on there if he can't physically escape.

Setting expectations is a good idea - and you can discipline but you need to talk about his behaviour rather than him. I use words like "where is my good boy - where has he gone? Your behaviour is naughty, I like it when you are my good boy which means when you use kind words and gentle hands" and things like that.

Give him an out - tell him how to tell you (without words?!) if it is all too much - remind him before and whisper in his ear during events too. Basically to start with your focus has to be on helping him manage in events with groups of people, rather than being focused on the event yourself. DH and I normally take it in turns.

With regards to nursery - two things. My son has safe places he can find in nursery (of his own creation) so if things overwhelm him he can walk off. and also it is mostly children of his own age - adults tend to be more overwhelming for him. As such he doesn't get overwhelmed in the same way. might be similar for your DS.

Boundaries are good - as is letting him tell you if he feels he needs to get out

AllChange, the OP says that her son has no problem at nursery, so there is nothing to indicate that he has problems in groups.

To Witchend - your example is not helpful. My son is not hitting other children. He has never hit or smacked.
Also, just to point out, he never ever shouts or screams AT anyone, he does it by himself, like he's venting enormous overwhelming frustration. He has never in his life been unkind towards another child and has never been rude or impolite towards any adult. What I'm describing is internal emotions that he feels and then vents by himself in social settings. Other people dislike the noise he makes by screaming or crying loudly, but he never directs any of his behaviour at others.

To toomanyeggs: thank you so much for your post. I was really interested to read your words. I also think my DS has sensory issues. I think in his own way he is expressing the difficulties he finds he has in busy gatherings, but isn't able to explain to me in words how he is feeling. That's why I will never do what lots of people here have said and 'tell him off' because he isn't being naughty. He just literally can't cope.
''And many talks about how we handle this make no difference, because she promises to try again, to not do x/y or z, but in truth, she just cannot do it because I believe she has little control over it.'' This is exactly what I am trying to describe!
To AllChangeLife: Thank you too for your post.
My DS gets anxious around lots of noise/ lots of tall adults.
''My DS gets anxious around lots of noise/ lots of tall adults.
I can tell when it is happening because he starts running around like crazy and yelling/being boisterous.'' This is really interesting, and this is what my DS does. I think certain adults expect anxiety to be shown through quiet or introverted behaviour, as in the typical small child clinging to their mummy's leg and hiding their face. But some children express anxiety as you describe, and I think this is what my DS is doing. I really like what you say about asking your child if he is feeling funny as soon as you notice his behaviour changing, and then taking some time away from the scene just the 2 of you. This is an excellent idea. I should, and will, do this. I do set expectations before every single event, very clearly, he agrees fully, but then goes in to meltdown when there's too much going on and once this happens everything we talked through goes out the window. So I really like your advice about giving him an 'out'. A signal that he can use to let me know he's struggling that I can then act on. What kind of things could I do for this without using words? My focus absolutely does have to be about helping him manage events, hence my original post.

All I meant by the change in focus is that in really busy scenarios one of us is mostly always focused on him. (which tbh is a bit boring which is probably why it came out in my post!! ). I think you are doing fine, and sometimes it is so hard when it is such a shift in personality and so out of the norm. We didn't work out for a while what it was - we have a mild mannered child who is generally very nice... but then who can almost go manic if he is overwhelmed, rather than cowering as you might expect!

I sign with mine - and so he can respond to a simple sign, or get him to point, or give him something (a wristband?) to give to you when he needs to get out. Maybe even just as simple as saying that if he comes to you and taps/gets your attention without saying anything you will know he needs a break for fresh air. I also pre empt it sometimes and take him out for a break saying things like "wasn't it noisy in there" or something along those lines.

If he starts the pattern of behaviour you can remove him immediately then which is then for his own good rather than as a punishment. It is outside of the scenario you can say "screaming isn't nice - I know it is really noisy in there, but we can always get some fresh air if you need to please let me know" before you go back in.

All things I've tried - I hope things work out for you!!

That's really fantastic advice, thank you so much for taking the time to answer with a positive, constructive and understanding response.
I knew exactly what you meant about the shift in focus, I didn't take it the wrong way - I just had to finish my post abruptly to see to my DD baby! I really take that point on board because it is so true; in social settings there is always so much going on, friends/family are talking to me and I'm trying to listen to them at the same time as keep my eye on DS and also my baby DD which is hard to do, so sometimes I think I do miss cues that I would otherwise have been tuned in to if I had been solely focusing on him. And I agree - my DS is also gentle mannered and a lovely boy like yours who goes manic when overwhelmed. Thank you for your practical suggestions, I am going to implement those. And I def need to pre-empt more and take little time out breathers to help him cope more.
I have tried really hard to help him articulate to me in simple terms how he is feeling in the build up to his outbursts, and he has got really good at this if we're in smaller groups but in bigger/busier groups/settings it isn't working so I need to use an even simpler tactic like those you suggest.
Out of interest, how old is your little one, and what are your thoughts on why some children struggle so much in busy social settings whilst others find it so plain sailing?x

'so sometimes I think I do miss cues that I would otherwise have been tuned in to if I had been solely focusing on him'.......meaning that the cues are so very subtle and are therefore are easily missed unless in a 1-1 situation.

You're welcome...

FWIW, my daughter is fine at school. She has been having problems leaving me, and her teacher is doing a progress chart, and she is getting smiley faces throughout the day!

I sign with mine - and so he can respond to a simple sign, or get him to point, or give him something (a wristband?) to give to you when he needs to get out. Maybe even just as simple as saying that if he comes to you and taps/gets your attention without saying anything you will know he needs a break for fresh air. YES! Have a signal that isn't obvious to everyone else. My friend's children go to her & hold her hand.

Out of interest, how old is your little one, and what are your thoughts on why some children struggle so much in busy social settings whilst others find it so plain sailing Personality type (introvert, extrovert), Anxiety etc. Just like adults. Many adults find it overwhelming to be in big groups. So why would a small child be able to handle it better?

We went to the cinema the other day, dd was beautifully behaved. Because she knew all she had to do was watch a film. There was no one she needed to impress, or be good for. There were no expectations on her. Same with school. She knows what is expected.

But get her at a family get together, where her father is automatically anxious of her behaviour (which I am sure she senses), because they are his family, and he has a massive hang-up around pleasing them, and she doesn't deal. And they don't make an effort to get the best from her, they just get snippy & grumpy, and she doesn't understand why!

Yet with my family & friends, she is relaxed because I don't worry about perceptions. She has been raised well, she has lovely manners, she is very caring & will offer to help anyone, she just finds crowds too much. And my (and dh's) behaviour around that usually helps (me) or hinders (dh).

Also, make sure you tell him what to expect before you get where you are going. Not in massive sentences, but small bits and pieces.

Keep reinforcing the good behaviour
Make sure people know what is happening for him (that he is overwhelmed etc, not "acting out").
Don't hesitate to defend/advocate for him (The best thing I did once was tell my FIL to stop moaning at dd after he was grabbing at her during a meal. He liked to call it "teasing" but it is annoying to have someone grab the arm you are trying to eat with, and then yell at you for objecting!)

she explained to me that her boys don't like 'lots of noise' and she has kept play dates to a bare minimum as a result. Oh & whoever said this, just tell them that your ds is the same, but his dislike just appears differently to her children's, because he is a lot younger! It makes me mad when we have to adapt for friends/family, yet there are no allowances made back.

Me again...

And to make the point in the differences in behaviour...my friend has autistic children. The youngest, when overwhelmed will either regress to acting like a baby (need dressing/feeding/bathing etc) or scream & hit out at her parents

The eldest will grab her earphones & zone out, leave the room if she can do, or at extremes latch onto her mother like a baby

They are both adorable kids. Cannot do enough for me when I am watching them. Beautiful manners, etc.

Thank you so much, this is just the type of intelligent response I was hoping to connect with! Brilliant advice, I feel an instant connection with everything you're saying and have taken everything on board.
Thank you.xx