Please help, DD5 is out of control

[pristinechristine]

DD5 is out of control. Her behaviour is escalating and we just don't know what to do.

In case it's relevant - she's an only child. She's very bright (advanced reader, very articulate despite being a late talker, amazing memory.) She's also very affectionate - she tells me she loves me maybe 20 times a day, loves having cuddles. At school she is pretty well behaved. There's been a couple of blips at school but on the whole it's fine.

But her behaviour at home, oh my god. She is so defiant. Absolutely everything she's asked to do she either refuses to do or just ignores us altogether. Every step of our day is a battle - getting dressed, cleaning teeth, going to the toilet, having hair washed, coming to the dinner table, going to bed, everything. She refuses every single dinner which is put in front of her and embarrassingly, I just end up spoon feeding her and basically begging her to eat something.

She also has a temper and this, along with the backchat, has been escalating recently. She shouts, swears, stamps her feet, slams doors and argues all the time. If I said the sky is blue she would probably scream at me that it's pink. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells from the moment we get up wondering what little thing will set her off. She's so rude - she'll say things to DH and me like we need to watch our attitude!

I've been reading about oppositional defiant disorder and wondering whether she actually has something wrong like this.

Nothing seems to work. She doesn't respond well to time-outs, she won't stay in her room. She doesn't seem bothered about sanctions - we've conviscated and even thrown away cheap toys but she doesn't seem to care (although she is upset once it happens, but she still doesn't listen the next time it's threatened.) Making games and challenges out of things used to work sometimes, but not anymore.

We try our hardest to recognise and praise the good behaviour, but it's few and far between really! I'm ashamed to say that I often ending up snapping and shouting at her - and I know that this will be contributing to her modelling that - but I'm really at the end of my tether with her most days.

I don't know what to do. Does this sound like typical 5yo behaviour (I'm sure it's not) and should I be going to see the GP? Will they take me seriously? I've raised her eating issues 3 times in the past with the GP and it was just dismissed really. Please help.

I'm not sure setting up a confrontation to 'win' against her by ramping up and up the control would be a good idea.

But I also don't know strategies specific to oppositional defiance disorder etc.

As the grown up in this situation id be trying to help her find ways of engaging positively, and manage her emotions - but this is tricky if all you get is the venting and losing it stuff.

My son went through an eating problem which was getting very out of control. At the root of it was an over zealous child carer force feeding him and turning food into a distressing and fraught all out war. I decided to refocus the aims of meal times from physical to emotional and experiential. Basically, forcing food into his stomach by any and every means possible, wasn't working at all and it was all spiralling out of control - he was losing weight, as well as becoming anxious and withdrawn, not to mention rude and grumpy.

I decided to make a simple set of rules for mealtimes, all about giving DS more control and getting him to try everything (1 mouthful), but leaving it completely up to him to finish whatever he wanted and absolutely no pressure beyond that 1 mouthful of each food. And the other rules were about supporting him to make healthy food choices & listen to his tummy. And huge praise for trying new or long forgotten foods, focusing on the senses and modelling a relaxed and interested approach to food.

It was a bit scary but I decided that it was worth a go, as creating more tension and power battles was failing miserably.

And he's now eating really well, and the battles have completely gone, now he doesn't have to eat he's much happier. It's amazing the knock on affect through the whole day.

I know your situation isn't just about eating, but thought I'd share anyway to illustrate that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and battling for control can create more and more power and control issues.

Please stop punishing and sanctioning. Any child psychologist or behaviorist will tell you it's a waste of time. Read how to talk so kids will listen. Google the videos (a bit dated but brilliant). Read Peaceful parent happy kids by Laura markham or the conscious parent or the whole brain child. Excellent reading that shows how wrong we are to punish children and how we can ensure kids are emotionally strong and stable.

Ps I've been there with my dd too, she's been put in the car in her pyjamas on a school morning before.... Didn't work, nothing did til I started learning about how to connect and communicate with her.

. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells from the moment we get up wondering what little thing will set her off. She's so rude - she'll say things to DH and me like we need to watch our attitude!

This stood out for me. You are the adults, you are not supposed to be tip-toeing around your 5 year old daughter and she most certainly should not be telling you, her parents, to mind your attitudes

I highly doubt that your daughter has PDA or ODD. She doesn't do this at school because there are clearly defined lines over which you do not step without incurring clearly defined consequences.

In your position I would be 're-setting' the household and implementing clear rules and consequences.

'Expected' behaviour in our house for example would be politeness, eating your dinner nicely at the table, getting ready for bed when it's time (hands, face, teeth included), having a bath/shower and washing properly, homework, lunch pots by the sink, getting dressed and keeping your room reasonably tidy (including putting dirty washing in the basket).

We eat together mostly, but the biters eat with each other if we as parents aren't eating too and they always sit at the table. 'Eating nicely' is exactly that. Knife and fork, eating your food with your mouth closed and chatting between mouthfuls. We have never made it all about eating everything, the emphasis is always about sitting there, with family, until everyone else is done, but that said if you claim you're full, you're full-no pudding & no snacks later.

Children will not starve themselves. Begging her to eat gives her all the power at the dinner table and she knows it. At five years old. Make it about being there and ignore the "I WON'T EAT IT!" routine by saying in a calm, cool tone "That's fine but there's nothing else and you need to sit here nicely while Daddy and I eat ours." and then ideally engage her in small talk about her day. Repeat that it's fine but there's nothing else as required but DO NOT GIVE IN and keep calm. Children will end up picking at their food if they are sat there long enough because you've removed the stick she's beating you with. The not eating. They'll usually try the 'with my fingers' whilst picking in order to create a new issue but remain calm, and say "I'd like it if you could use your knife and fork like a big girl" or similar. Again, calm and in control voice, not whiny, begging Mummy needs you too voice. She does not need to be spoon fed even if she asks. She is five years old not months.

Tantrums need to be dealt with in a firm but calm manner. No screaming on your part, no guessing what might work this time, decide what punishment is appropriate and do that. Personally I recommend the ask for nice behaviour once, tell them you expect nice behaviour now or it's a time out once, and if necessary follow through with a 5 minute time out in a safe spot, timing begins when they are quiet and or still. Calm and controlled is absolutely the key with this. Time outs won't work if your child thinks you're going to cave at the first sign of resistance on their part. Be strong. Gently but firmly return to the spot/wait for quiet and then time. Once done it's a brief explanation from you, an apology on the child's part and a cuddle.

I say it's re-setting the house because you and DH need to be on the same page employing the same tactics. And you have to be clear, calm and consistent well beyond a few days. The lines of discipline work at school and they will work at home too but you both need to remain calm and in control, even in the face of a turbo tantrum, just like the teachers have to. I know how that sounds but if a teacher started screaming and shouting and throwing random toys in the bin as a class punishment you and 99% of the other parents would definitely have something to say about it, right?

Sorry if I've gone on a bit but trust me, you don't want to leave it any longer to nip this in the bud as they only get louder and more determined with age. Ask me how I know...

Ankles as I said before that's great if it works. If there is an underlying issue though it may make things worse.

Bishop I do not believe (and I have experience) that a clear, calm and consistent household will do more harm than a tumultuous shouty one that essentially has a five year old dictator at the helm.

I'm not saying anyone has to parent exactly like I do but when you are faced with an out of control child/ren (whatever the cause may be) you can not be an out of control adult.

For what it's worth I do use 5 minute countdowns, distraction techniques and even good old fashioned cajoling as all four/five of mine/ours are different but in all honesty I thought that OP really should look at 'back to basics' structure and rules as she seems to be randomly grabbing at whatever disciplinary approach and sanctions are 'handy' depending on how frustrated she is (which given the circumstances is totally understandable).

I agree there's no need for shouting. However, not all children respond to concrete boundaries. Doesn't mean you can't have them, it's how they're implemented that is key. The easiest way to ensure compliance with one of our children is to present a choice between two options which have an identical outcome. Yet with the other two very black and white yes/no boundaries are more effective and they feel far more secure.

What do you do with a child that refuses to respond to consequences - no matter how calmly given? A child who on removal of screen time will become physically violent? When a sanction for poor behaviour leads to worse other avenues have to be tried.

Children unfortunately are not one approach fits all. The op needs to try more than one if initial attempts are unsuccessful. I completely agree though that calm is key.

I do say this by the way as a parent whose first two children positively thrived in firm boundaries. The third just didn't. All the time I was told to make things stricter and stricter, clear consequences, all done calmly, but it just got worse and worse and worse.

That was until I had my lightbulb moment, read up on PDA (she does have atypical ASD diagnosed anyway) and put some of the strategies in place. Doesn't mean we don't have order and discipline, and life is so much less chaotic as a result.

Of course I'm not saying that the OP's child does have PDA, but the strategies have been known to work on other 'explosive' children too.

Other things that work are countdowns (as long as it's couched when I get to 1 this is what happens rather than saying I will do) and lots of distraction.

OP here. Thank you for all the replies, they're very much appreciated and I'm trying to take it all on board.

So on Wednesday after school I decided that I wouldn't enter into anymore debates with her. The first arose straight away in that I only wanted her to choose one snack (she usually demands 2 or 3 different things and then of course this has a knock on effect on dinnertime.) I calmly explained that she could have one thing which obviously she wasn't happy with. I then told her that I would be getting on with housework whilst she chose. She went crazy! Screaming at me, asking whether I had a hearing problem when I wouldn't engage, and then finally stomping down the stairs saying she didn't want to live here anymore

I sat her down and explained that things were going to be different from now on. Mummy wasn't going to shout or throw toys away, but that we were going to have a sticker chart for good behaviour. This turned her around immediately. We made a chart together and ever since then, she has been pretty compliant all the time to earn stickers. She chose to go to the park after school yesterday as a reward.

I'm basically giving her stickers for lots of different small things at the moment to try and build up the association...I haven't spoonfed her for the past couple of days either. Although she's not eaten anywhere near as much as I would have liked it's all stayed very calm which is the main thing I think.

There have been a few occasions when she's started to become needlessly stroppy so I've just calmly told her that it isn't nice, but how well she's been doing with her stickers. This morning I even got an apology from her which is quite unusual!

So, so far, so good. I don't know whether it's just a novelty with the chart at the moment but it's certainly working.

Well done, OP.
Another way that helps in our family is saying "the rule is" rather than "you will" "you must" etc. Less demand, more expectation.

Well done with the sticker chart. Just remember that they only work for short bursts (you'll both get bored and then they become less effective when the novelty wears off), so start thinking about some other reward systems you could use to keep things fresh (e.g. marbles in a jar - when the jar is full she gets to choose a treat...just try to avoid using presents as a treat, use activities which reward her with your time and attention).

Also don't underestimate the effect of tiredness on behaviour (sounds like she is holding together in school and letting loose at home), an special bubble bath and story followed by bedtime even 20 mins earlier might help.

The eating thing sounds like my DS. Unfortunately there was a link between him being hungry and his behaviour worsening. If I could get food into him regularly then his behaviour got better. In the end I would give him the same meal as the rest of the family, but give him a slice of toast or put things in separate bowls or whatever helped him eat happily. That way I felt I wasn't compromising too much on the actual food, but he ate enough to keep his blood sugars stable and calm. He has outgrown the worst of the food issues now he is in Y3.

Sticker charts are good but get used to saying "I'm proud of you", "you tried really hard", "I can see how difficult that was" etc too.

Stop micromanaging her every moment.

A phrase I always found to be useful when faced with demands or whinging was 'that's not going to happen'. End of discussion.

What makes you think I'm micromanaging her every moment Mycrane?

I should've expanded on that. When you have an only child some parents constantly interact with the child and monitor their every action. With more than one child you tend to leave them to it and get on with something else. I had one child for six years before having two more. Looking back, I can see how very different my parenting styles were between having one child and then more. I found the first child hard work and that was my fault not hers.

My son has been like that since day one. It's been a bloody hard slog, but by NEVER letting him get away with that behaviour coupled with appropriate and relative consequences (ie "You have five seconds to do X. If you don't, you will go outside in what your wearing/your toy is going in the bin/I will show you photos of what rotten teeth look like. It's your choice") he jumps to it pretty much when I ask. I'm sure I'll have blips worth him as he gets older, but the framework is there. You HAVE to be consistent, you have to have child-specific relative consequences etc. Tell her no, tell her fine she can go out without shoes on etc (let her do it so she can feel the cold etc), but never, ever give in.