gentle parenting struggles

[littleraysofsunshine]

I like to think we are gentle parents, always done things in an attached parent kind of way. I don't like labels but in simple form this is how we've tried to raise our littles so far. (5,3.5,2) and 34 weeks pregnant.

The thing I'm finding hard is that as much as I can try to be fun, and talk things through, patient. I find dp and I end up using bribes or eventually shouting as they just don't seem to take us seriously if we are saying they have upset us, or unacceptable behaviour.

We try to validate their emotions as ours (5 & 3.5yo)

But we get the: "you're just rubbish", they shout, scream when feeling powerless, if we try to say it's not acceptable they will just refuse to listen.

When dds are playing, and they'll dispute. We try to say we'll wait until they are finished, play together or find something else but I get told I'm a bully, or in fair, or I'm boring.

If we say it's bed time, they will refuse to go without us going up.

Miss five will refuse to go upstairs on her own. She feels the need to have someone with her each time.

I want them to respect us without us shouting. Having to ask them numerous times etc.

Tidying up and playing is another story. They will not tidy up unless nagged to do so (after being and trying to make it fun but orderly) they will leave toys out and start another again, they have a playroom but refuse to play in it. They follow me, or just make mess everywhere or ask for things constantly.

We have a good few months but all of a sudden it's gone a bit mad again!

I'm reading some books at the minut (playful parenting) and toddler calm.

I don't need a link Amy, my DSs are older and I haven't had any behaviour issues with them, however I have kept things fairly simple with them. They were close in age just 18 months gap which complicates things slightly, but Personally i have bribed them with food and toys and hand on heart my Ds1 has never had a tantrum in his life (he is now 10) and ds2 just a handful, and considering he has a speech disorder I don't think I have done too badly. I think that parents often overcomplicate things with young children, explain everything in great detail, expect toddlers to actually understand unreasonable expectations from parents. They need clear, simple boundaries, and consistency.

Did i say anything about overcomplicating things? It doesnt matter what age your children are a bribe is a bribe, its like me saying to you ill give you £100 to do something for me, your more inclined to do it because your being given something to do it, my 2 year old knows if she eats all her lunch or dinner she gets a small pudding afterwards if she doesnt eat it she gets no pudding, she has simple clear boundries behave and you get a reward you dont behave you get nothing, there is 3 children under 3 in my house and it is the same with all of them, its not hard its not complicated, and i am consistent with everything i tell her, fair enough she has bad days but everyone is entitled to a bad day, i think your under estimating a toddler/childs ability to understand, i have done it enough with my daughter for her to know to stay close to me. I just dont under how thats too complicated to understand?

Food as a reward isn't great and the eat it all and you will get pudding is an unhealthy approach.
But if it works for you carry on.

A pudding can be anything from a yoghurt to a packet of raisons maybe even a biscuit i didnt say i feed my child a massive slice of chocolate cake when shes been good and ate all her lunch and dinner, i cant understand why you wont even listen, a reward can be ANYTHING even a stupid cheap toy from poundland. An extra pound on there pocket money for tidying there room a day out at the park, farm a long walk an extra 5 mins in the bath it doesnt need to be food.

Hi sunshine.

I'm a big fan of gentle parenting, the ideals and the theory behind it all make sense to me and I've been all set to do it. It can be really challenging, though. I only have one child, he is seven now, and something I've learnt over the years is to relax a bit about parenting "styles" and mix and match a bit more.

If you're shouting and you don't want to be then something is obviously going wrong somewhere. I don't think that necessarily means that gentle parenting is "not working" as it's just not all or nothing like that. It can help to think in terms of levels of what you're comfortable with in terms of techniques for managing behaviour. On the top/ideal is all of the connection, talking, reasoning, empathising, modelling stuff and in an ideal world that would work all of the time, but of course it doesn't. Sometimes they aren't in the right frame of mind to take it in and sometimes you aren't feeling patient enough to do it, or you're tired or busy with the other DC or you just haven't woken up yet, or whatever. That doesn't mean you've done anything wrong, it's just life. We can't be perfect all the time.

So then I think on the next level you have these necessary prevention actions that you wouldn't do as a matter of course but would absolutely do without thinking if it was a serious situation. This is stuff like physically grabbing them and pulling them away from danger, taking scissors or small items off a baby/toddler, just general damage control by physical barrier, that kind of thing. This here is useful because it shows you that you absolutely do have the skills to enforce boundaries when it's important. (It's likely, too, that you use other methods to keep DC safe from danger such as verbal warnings and other restraints like pushchairs, stairgates, hand holding.) So you have the skills to enforce boundaries on other issues which are not life and death, too. It just takes some thinking to transfer them to issues which are not life and death.

Next you have some actions that you might not want to do ideally but you recognise that they are not inherently harmful - in the gentle parenting mindset, this might be rewards and punishments. (In another parenting mindset this might be things like "sometimes letting the DC sleep in bed with me" or "going back on my word in certain circumstances") And you can moderate that - some kinds of reward might be less problematic than others, for example the slight overuse of some carefully chosen words to emphasise exactly what you liked, or a chart made with the input of your child to help motivate her about something she doesn't feel enthusiastic about might be more acceptable to you than money or food as a reward for something which you think they should do anyway. And with punishments/consequences, again, there is a big difference between a consequence which is related to helping them make something better or understand where they went wrong, or a token inconvenience for them which you know they can cope with and isn't frightening but you know they won't particularly like, and a punishment which is shaming, frightening, or too much to cope with.

Lastly is the category of things that you don't ever want to do - which might include things like shouting, smacking, grabbing, shoving, shaming, criticising, name calling.

So - here's the problem. It's possible that you can become so focused on avoiding the category 3 actions, or things that are "against my parenting style" or are just considered no-nos even though you don't objectively find them terrible that you can become blind to the fact you're running straight into category 4 every time you exhaust your options. Even worse, because you haven't consciously thought "Now I'm going to shout because this is an effective technique" and just ended up shouting accidentally because you were emotionally wound up, you assume that it doesn't count. But it does count. So then you feel guilty and horrible and that in turn affects your parenting which isn't helpful.

Shift in thinking: Wouldn't it be better to employ some techniques from category 3 on occasion if they help you to reduce (you'll never ever eliminate all unplanned outbursts) category 4 actions? Does category 3 look so bad now? Especially if you have separated it out from "unacceptable to me" to "not ideal but permissible for me". The fact is that we are human. We would all love to parent in our ideal way all of the time but it just doesn't happen. It's okay to rely on some things that you're less than happy about as temporary or interim measures to release pressure and prevent you blowing up and actually damaging your relationship with the DC in the long run. You're always going to have mornings where you're not up to much, days when you feel crap, days when the DC are especially trying and it's okay to be less than ideal in these times - it's just better to keep your less than ideal in the still just about acceptable framework than the totally unacceptable one. And you can still keep researching in category 1 to find things that work for you, too. Just keep those emergency options open.

Long post is long... I have some "cat 1" ideas which might help you too but will do another post.

Really good post there BertieBotts

Bertie is a very wise lady.

On ideas. I agree with a PP who said that telling them their behaviour upsets you isn't hugely helpful ATM. I might use it with the 5yo for something like rudeness - that is helpful. Otherwise it is too abstract. Saying something like "Mummy is sad when you don't tidy up your shoes" is pretty difficult for them to understand, saying something simple and factual like "Shoes live in the shoe rack" is better or "Shoes on the floor make a mess" (or we might trip over them, perhaps). You don't need to tell them your feelings about the mess or about where the shoes live. Just state it as though it's fact and it will seem right. It's definitely OK to say "I don't like it when you speak to me like that, it hurts." but I'd steer clear of it for things where your emotions are really irrelevant to the fact that the behaviour isn't acceptable anyway.

Playful Parenting is good but I think you're already good at doing the connecting/playful stuff from what I'm reading. So you might find something like How To Talk better, which has actual strategies for managing conflict and problems. A great online/free resource is Andrea Nair. She has a facebook page and a website and she's really good at this age group's stuff and she doesn't pretend to be perfect or that it's really easy to keep up the gentle parenting stuff.

You might try looking at a more practical problem solving approach rather than focusing so much on emotional stuff. Emotions are good and helpful and it's good to be aware that children's feelings can be really strong even about stuff which doesn't seem important, but what I'm getting from your posts is that you're doing a lot of explaining and trying to understand and it's going around in circles and DC are getting frustrated or they don't like the options they are being given and then you're sort of stuck as to what to do next. So it might be better to do a more active assessment, a quick, OK, what's actually wrong in this situation and how can we divert that or turn it around, you can ask them for input/ideas as well (certainly the 5yo, less so the younger two.) In fact sometimes saying "How can we make this situation better?" and getting them to police it themselves is helpful because it helps them to feel responsible and also think about how to manage things themselves rather than always running for help. Remember also that your job is not to always make everything better and prevent them from feeling any negative feelings ever. There are going to be tears and tantrums and it doesn't make practical sense, especially with 4dc to try too hard to avoid them. Comfort and understanding, yes, but taking a fair amount in your stride and trying to look at the bigger picture rather than focusing too much on the worry that you might be neglecting their feelings are helpful.

A picture timetable for bedtime might help. Can you have some kind of routine which might help the 5yo feel grown up for going alone, like listening to a story CD or similar until you're done with the others and then you come at the end for cuddle/kiss/chat or for her to read a little bit to you. Staggering bedtime might help, too, but only if the little ones are fairly quick to get down.

OTOH 5yo might be feeling a bit like she's "too" grown up maybe? If she's anxious about the new baby and the middle two get more attention because they are littler. It might just be a phase. You could appeal to her ego by saying something like "It would be really helpful if somebody could get my XXX from upstairs. I wonder if I know anyone who could do that for me?" Just treat her reluctance to go upstairs with no seriousness and wait - one day she'll probably just do it without you even doing anything.

Sorry, ended up a bit rambly and it's late, but definitely look at the Andrea Nair website. Here's a good example.

Oh I think I probably just go on a bit too much TBH.

Oh Bertie, is the village still open? We're in the middle of some assessments for DS so I've mainly been hanging out in the Goose and Carrot but I am in need of some slightly more toddler oriented chat for the 21 month old...

Like a previous poster I highly recommend Janet Lansbury - she has a website and a page on Facebook. She is very good on how to enforce boundaries in a respectful way.

Will check them out thanks.

FYI a mother's help is someone you pay to give you a hand around the house e.g. they might just come in for a few hours at times of peak stress so you don't feel as pressured. I thought about it at one point and I only have 1! A hellavu 1 though.

I don't think there is a current village thread drspouse but feel free to start one :)

YY to Bertie talking sense. I tend to look up the options for each problem we hit and make a decision on what's the best 'fit' for all of us, rather than ascribe solely to a particular style of parenting, but most of the time we come down on the side of ap. There have been times when the method that seemed so perfect and 'the right way to do it' just didn't work for us, and we've had to try less desirable (to us) options as it was better than ending up in a situation where we were all suffering and broken (particularly true of DD's sleep refusal period, and times where I gave her the odd bottle of formula in the early days). I only have one DC, although soon to be two, she is still little, and I still have a lot of lessons in front of me, but flexibility is the key I think. Go with your first choice ideal method, but be prepared to go to a second or third if it doesn't work. You won't get a medal at the end for strictly adhering to one style of parenting, and even if you did I'm not sure it'd be worth it if you've sent yourself dotty trying to obtain it.

You sound like you are doing a fantastic job. I think it's impossible to avoid all shouting at all times with one let alone your soon to be four! You are aware when you do it, and are trying to avoid it. That's good enough.

I also recommend 'How to talk' for a bit of light reading. I have actively avoided any sort of self help books throughout my life as I don't believe in a 'one size fits all' and have never responded well to people telling me what to do, but felt I needed some tips for the recently begun toddler years and beyond. It's actually pretty good

It's not just about bedtime.

School runs are the absolute Bain of my life at the minute. It's changed the whole dynamics and happiness of our home. Every morning is a stress zone. They're still so small and it's so much to expect. This is a factor why I wanted to HE as we wouldn't have the strict timings to go by at such young ages. Kids don't like being bossed about, and that's all that happens with eventually shouting from no listening every morning. I'm sick of feeling so unhappy and guilty for resulting in shouting. I try happy fun methods but none work!

Stop worrying about validating, you're not their friend. You're their carer. They seriously outnumber you & they have feeble innate capacity to put others first. You can be loving but firm. It will undermine your mental health & the children's needs if you try to be anything other than the boss.

You need a change of direction I probably gentle parented but I parented small children decades ago so didn't have a name not everything is sweet and fun your children need boundaries but they are so small that they are confused where the line is you are maybe using far to many words and explanation s they are tuning you out and playing up they are following you about because they are still young and want security and direction that's quite normal for a 5 and 3 year old Bertie'spost was excellent keep going back to it every time you have a wobble Kids are not being bossed about when you are trying to get them out the door you need to get out the door

I am dreading the school run because the nursery run is so much less time critical (if I have to be in work early, I just aim for a nursery drop off that is way, way earlier than I really need).

But I don't shout nearly as much as I used to because I just ignore/get on with my stuff and/or make things into a race or a game.

Dressing is a race, but also has an end purpose (breakfast).
Getting shoes on is a chance to tell Mummy which shoes she is wearing today (yes I did really want to wear these shoes 3 days running...)
Asking DS to please turn his jumper round the right way like I know he can leads to him stomping and shouting NO I WILL NOT but then when I ignore him and get on with my own/DC2's stuff he does it.

As I'll still have one DC in nursery, which starts a little earlier, when DS starts school, I imagine I will be using the breakfast club even if it's just for 5 minutes, quite a bit, and getting up early. There are various other imponderables on the way to school e.g. if we get the school we want it's a bus ride or drive away so traffic will mean our arrival time is not exact. So we'll just try and get as much ready the night before as we can (already do that), get up early (already do that), try and leave early (we TRY but don't always succeed) and come up with additional plans (e.g. we used to put breakfast out the night before when DC2 was younger and needed feeding so it took a lot longer to eat it; we already make a packed tea for them both even though they eat it at home some days!)

I can't imagine home ed because I'd just spend the whole day chivvying them instead of just a short while in the morning. One day a week at home is nice, and it's nice not to go out sometimes on that day but like puppies, the DCs need to get out and run around too.

Unfortunately I think you would get the same issues with HE. You'd still have to be on time for things sometimes. Dentist appointments or home ed groups or theatre shoes, whatever it is.

From what I gather from my friends with 3 or 4 DC it's just about getting everything working like a factory assembly line. Keep things predictable and consistent, plan in extra time for everything, be breezy and cheerful but matter of fact. Picture timetables help. As much stuff as they can do themselves will help. Pick everyone's clothes the night before and lay them out. Avoid fiddly fastenings on clothes. Breakfast is limited to simple options, get a small milk jug they can use themselves, small pouting pots for cereal, set things out the night before. TV after they are ready, one channel allowed, pick one with a programme that finishes 15 mins before your idea leaving time. TV always off when that prog ends meaning no arguments. Shoes, coats, out of door. Aim to be 20 mins early if walking slowly or you hit traffic .

You know, it's really not too much to ask of little ones, to get ready and out of the door in the mornings. Literally millions of children manage it on a daily basis, with minimal shouting, often in good cheer.

I think you're stuck in an overthinking cycle. Just let them know what's expected of them, show them, get them used to it, make it an ingrained habit, then it won't require all of this angst.