oppositional defiant disorder

[Ihateusernames79]

Hi All,
I was just wondering if anyone on here had any experience of oppostional defiant disorder? Has anyone else's child had a diagnosis and what was the outcome of that?
I'm pretty sure my daughter is displaying signs. I've done a lot of reading and she seems to tick all the boxes. Right from birth she was angry, moany, difficult to please and threw tantrums at the drop of a hat. As she got older I put her challenging behaviour down to her age, I told myself the constant battles were normal, and yes I'm sure a lot of it was normal. But she's nearly 5 now and I'm exhausted. We fit all the criteria. Her father and I divorced when she was 18 months old, we've moved around A LOT and I suffer from depression and anxiety. The poor child has not had the greatest start. BUT I've always been very focused on her needs. I play with her, I read to her, I'm not neglectful and I'm very affectionate and loving. I consider myself to be a fairly good mum. I do all the things I'm supposed to. But she battles me at every turn. She is reflexively obstructive. She is deliberately rude and spiteful. She hits and screams. She flies off the handle at the smallest thing (eg spilt crisps). She is demanding. She talks to me as if I am her slave. She ignores instructions. She constantly tries to start arguments and disagrees with everything I say just for effect. She talks to my parents in a way that makes me feel ashamed. I spend my WHOLE life correcting her language, her behaviour, putting her in her room, taking away toys and priveleges and NOTHING HAS ANY EFFECT. She always says sorry after but within minutes she's back at it.
I know life can be hard on her. There's a lot she has to deal with in terms of going back and forth between her dad and me. I know that underneath the behaviour is a sweet, clever, kind little girl who I love with all my heart. But most of the time I can't reach her. I can't reason with her. I feel like I can't teach her because she's refusing to listen.
We have a reward system with marbles. Every ten marbles she can choose a treat, like a magazine. It works some of the time. But she seems so much more focused on getting attention through negative behaviour. I just don't understand it. When things are calm we're so happy together and get on so well. Why does she want to ruin it?
Please help! Is there any point in me taking her to a psychologist? Or the doctor? What do I do?
thanks!

It sounds horrible and exhausting for you both. It sounds like you both have got stuck in cycles of negative behaviour......she is naughty so you take away her toys. You mention that you spend your whole time correcting her, she knows she gets more attention for being naughty, I think you are right and you do need help and support, not for a diagnosis though. I think parenting classes would be more appropriate so that you could build on the good things that you do and are given skills to help you get the best from your daughter. I think looking for a diagnosis for a child who isn't even four yet is unlikely to be helpful until you have been given the help and support you need.

My ds1 was like this. It's just so very wearing and depressing. I didn't want to wake up in the mornings sometimes.

He too ticked all the boxes of ODD but no GP would help me because he was an angel at school. The constant distress his behaviour caused me, h and his siblings was just awful.

We took him to a private counsellor. He saw her for a year. He calmed down a smidge. Then we couldn't afford it. Went to another GP who referred us and finally got a CAMHS appointment. The CMAHS counsellor think he's marvellous. Great.

However now he is 10. He's still very unpleasant to his siblings and to us but generally it's a lot better.

Do you find your dd just doesn't understand consequences for for her behaviour, op? It's only now ds1 seems to understand that he gets diff confiscated etc if he behaves badly.

I would just go back to your GP over and over. Don't be dismissed. Keep a diary of her behaviour to show how severe it is.

I'm sorry for you. It's hellish. Exhausting and miserable.

I hope she improves with age.

It's not a diagnosis I'm after really, just some help and advice. We probably do get stuck in a negative cycle. I'm on my own with her and trying to run my own business as well so life is very busy and very hard. I don't have that extra person to do baths or sort the toys out. And yes, I get very tired. When she misbehaves I can't just ignore it, I feel I have to show her that it's not acceptable and so toys get confisgated. She's almost 5 now. And a very clever one at that. She's very knowing about what she's doing. I need advice from an expert to tell me how to approach her behaviour.

THANK YOU winky! It sounds like you've had a hard time of it. I will try the GP. I really do think I need a bit of advice with this as she's not responding to normal discipline techniques.

Really, really feel for you OP. I have been there with DS1, now 15.

I spent most of my life thinking other parents knew something I didn't and trying to find out what it was - I read every book, attended various parenting classes, consulted every website etc. But all the things they said I was doing, but nothing worked.

Agree with PP, keep on at the GP/Camhs. I filmed my son with the help of a family support worker and that was what finally triggered Camhs intervention and eventually diagnosis. He displayed the exact same behaviours at school too though, how is your relationship with her school?

DS was finally at 12/13 diagnosed with ADHD and Aspergers and actually now is much better with appropriate support and a special school place. Although still bloody hard work to be honest. I still feel angry at times that he (and I) 'missed' his childhood in the midst of all the trouble. Don't get me wrong, we had nice times but even they were much much harder work to achieve than anyone would ever believe. (That's not just me looking at others with rose tinted glasses, I have younger children and my experience with them is completely different - there is a huge gap between DS1 and the next one as I was so sure I was doing it wrong that I didn't want another.) If I could go back I would push much harder, much earlier for support.

It is hard, the hardest thing I have ever been through. Be kind to yourself, you matter too.

Thank you Muddlewitch. I'm starting to wonder if there is some sort of ASD thing going on. She fits so many of the criteria for PDA. The main one being the fantasy world thing. Her main choice of play is alone and so deeply engrossed in fantasy that literally NOTHING infiltrates it. You just can't draw her out when she's in her pretend world. I always thought she just had a good imagination but my mum has said again and again how extreme it is and she's never seen a child that engrossed in solitary imaginary play. The thing is, her Dad is somewhat odd too! He behaves in a similar way. He still has tantrums over minor things, he's controlling and intimidating and lacks 'normal' social skills. He also works with computers! They both have 'flick of a switch' mood swings and the need to exert control over others. But they can both also be extremely charming and entertaining. Her language was delayed. As a baby she didn't babble at all. She was very solomn. At two she had a few select 'words' and I had to translate to people all the time. She's always needed structure and predictability and will throw a huge tantrum if you change your plans. She needs so much warning and preparation for things outside of her routine. She loves her new school routine. She's really thriving from doing the same thing everyday. But she seems to be playing with a different child everyday. She bosses other children around and feels the need to be in charge of the play. I'm starting to feel like I've reasoned away so many signs.

ODD-ish behaviour can often be a side effect of some other unrecognised special need. Like Muddlewitch my DS who seemed to me totally ODD turned out to have Asperger’s and once we started dealing with the Asperger’s (and its associated rigidities, communication difficulties and anxieties) properly the ODD really did get a whole lot better.

A lot of us who have these kinds of ODD-ish kids who don't respond to ordinary discipline find Explosive Child very helpful. It doesn’t rely on any specific diagnosis – in fact my old edition didn’t even mention Asperger’s or the autism spectrum! - but it really nailed my DS’s responses and the strategies were very helpful at home.

Yes, just want to reiterate that ODD is very often comorbid with other conditions. My DS has this diagnosis along with adhd.

He is now on medication and doing really well. The meds seem to have the effect of reducing the really overt defiance, as well as the hyperactivity.

Definitely worth pursuing this with your GP.

Thank you guys. I'm swinging back and forth at the moment between thinking 'she's fine, you're overreacting' and 'something's not right.' I think I need to talk to her teacher and see if she's observed anything yet. And go and talk to the doctor. I can't decide if I'm just an overreactive parent trying to find a reason for bad behaviour or if the tantrums and defiance are really too extreme to be 'normal'. All I can do is talk to people and get their opinions. It's difficult when it's just you in charge of the parenting! No one to bounce thoughts off or make joint decisions. But thank you all for your experiences. It really helps to hear other people's thoughts on all this.

My ds1 was perfect at school. Still is. If she's behaving well at school, then at least that's a blessing!

I remember being shocked to find out other children didn't behave as he did/does. I kept waiting for my friends dcs to kick off as much as he did and it never happened.

The worst thing is when people don't believe you. Keep recording the behaviour.

Read Punished by Rewards, Alfie Kohn. Your reward and punishment system, and spending all your life correcting her, is likely what is leading to the behaviors you're appalled at.

My niece was diagnosed at 5yo. Lots of screaming.
Her mother was fairly screwed up (not saying you are in slightest screwed up).
But unstable parent is part of why niece has had a rough time.

I honestly don't think you should try to self-diagnose, but agree look for ways to not escalate conflicts.

Hello, I’m sorry to drag up such an old post but I was Googling and came across this, which could be so relevant to my son. May I ask what the final outcome was? Did you decide whether you thought your daughter had ASD or ODD? Did you get any help or did she grow out of it? How is she now?
Sorry for so any questions and you might well be long gone from here 😅xx

Hi, I’ve also just come across this after googling ODD 5 year old 🙈 after another horrible outburst from 5 year son on the way home from school. As usual it was sparked by me quite calmly and telling him to wait for me to tell him to cross the road and not dart over just because he said no cars were coming. This then lead to him running off refusing to come back for me to talk to, purposely standing in dog poo, pushing his older brother near the road pulling blanket off the baby and throwing it on the floor and calling me fat and using the f word several times. He’s had all screens removed as usual which he’s supposed to be trying to earn back. He was remorseful and collapsed crying but only after I got really cross and shouted at him (feeling like I’ve failed again at modelling calm behaviour) it’s like he just glazes over and acts like a wild animal but then other times he’s the most easy going sweet kid. School think he is an absolute delight, described as a role model doesn’t get involved in any conflict or arguments. Angel at other parents houses. Angel at football the other boys get annoyed and a bit grabby or lash out if tackled sometimes but he’s always completely calm and restrained. I just don’t get it, during these melt downs he throws things, kicks me, bites me and it almost always stems from being pulled up on one bit of behaviour and then it just spirals. He also can’t take constructive criticism about anything ( maybe he’s a narcissist) and can be incredibly cruel with the things he says. He’s really affectionate and does show remorse but sometimes I don’t know it just seems a bit fake. We’ve had a big shift in the last year with my step son who is 15 who has ADHD moving in and my 5 year old has witnessed him talking to be badly and swearing at me and his outbursts of anger. Just not sure if I can keep ignoring it I almost don’t want to speak to the school as he’s doing so well and they think he is a completely different child I almost feel like I would be betraying him which I know sounds mental. Sorry for the long rambling post x