Struggling with 3yo DD

[SausageSmuggler]

DD is 3.5 and since turning 3 she has become increasingly defiant and will now point blank refuse to do anything we ask her. She always had beautiful manners but now just shouts 'I want...'. She's also become quite aggressive, hitting and kicking if she can't get her own way. The main thing I'm struggling with though is the attitude that radiates off of her, its like having a stereotypical 14 year old. If we tell her off she just laughs, put her in time out she'll say sorry afterwards then almost immediately carry on with whatever she wasn't supposed to be doing. This is in addition to the selective hearing, bolting off in busy places/car parks and throwing impressive tantrums over the smallest things.

Now I know why she's doing this: a) she's 3 which, in my experience of working with pre-schoolers for several years and having DS (5) is MUCH worse than 2. b) she's always been strong willed and is pushing boundaries and c) we now have DD2 who is 7 weeks old.

I know its mainly attention seeking because of the new baby but its becoming a really horrible, negative atmosphere at home. I've tried sticker charts, really praising good behaviour, offering choices when possible etc but nothing seems to be working although she has just started pre-school which I'm hoping will help. I'm just so tired of battling with her constantly because I know she can be affectionate, generous, funny and so lovely.
Is there anything else I could try? Its the attitude that bothers me most.

I don't have any suggestions I'm afraid but just to say she sounds like my (male) 3 year old and it is incredibly, incredibly wearing. Just 'No' to everything, no matter what (this afternoon, 'No' to my assertion that I only have one child - apparently the other, invisible one, is 'over there' - good job am not superstitious!); continuing with bad behaviour even when asked nicely not to, pushing all boundaries, etc. etc. By all accounts he's delightful at nursery (2.5 days a week) whihc is some (not a lot!) of consolation. We've been on holiday this month and he's been awful throughout, mortifying because we've stayed with friends. So yeah. No idea what you can tr. Good luck :D

It's always a consolation to know people are going through the same thing! DS was a horrendous 3 year old and is lovely now so I'm sure it will pass but I'd rather nip this behaviour in the bud now, I'm just not sure how anymore!

Oh this is my DS ALL OVER. He's so contrary; in some moods he will say no even to things he likes. He throws shit fits because of the most ridiculous things - him not walking downstairs / out the door / getting in the car first, because his little brother is looking at his toys, because I brought him the exact snack he asked for ... Etc.

He's started telling people to go away or shut up (no one has said this to him so not sure why). He's also hit DH a couple of times.

I have figured out he's much worse when tired, so enforcing sleep is a priority, but there doesn't seem to be much other logic. He can be sweet, funny, loving and kind - or a screaming, unreasonable whirlwind of fury. I love him so much but he's bloody exhausting at the moment and I end up feeling hugely guilty if he pushes too many buttons and I shout. We've tried ignoring bad behaviour, praising good, rewards charts, reasoning with him, removing toys, talking calmly about it ... Nothing really seems to change anything, it's like he has to work through the cycle by himself. So no advice, just solidarity from me!!!!

He's 3.8 btw and his little brother is 10mo

I've actually just come onto behaviour topic to have a nose and see if there was any way of dealing with my just turned 3yo dd's behaviour. Exactly the same as you describe. Everything is a battle, defiance, screaming no. She's such a smart, funny wee thing when she wants to be but dear God, she's driving me up the wall atm. Thought to myself tonight with a shudder that we'd be a prime example for one of those shows like the three day nanny.

Dd also just started preschool which I'm hoping will help (but she'll probably just be a dream for them) My older one is so laid back and I never went through this with him, he was a simple ignore the bad and praise the good and it worked a treat.

So yeah solidarity from me too and I'm feeling a bit better I'm not the only one.

She just had (at 9:20pm!!) a huge overtired meltdown because she decided she needed a wee but point blank refused to wash her hands. Ffs.

Just posted a very similar separate thread about DS2 who is 4, nearly 5. Has been like this a year or more and we haven't solved it at all so watching with interest....

Hi SS and Everyone

I came on to MM to look for some advice too. It is great that you have experience with this behaviour and age group.

I'm just back from picking up my DS2 (he turned 3 in July) early from his school nursery. The school called me to ask me to come and pick him up early from nursery by the request of the Head Teacher. Today was his 5th day there. He has had no previous nursery experience only playgroups at local churches etc.

After the first day, when the teacher mentioned that he had been slapping, she said that they had to put him in Time Out. I totally supported this and let her know that slapping is not accepted under any circumstance. I am fully supportive of the staff and any help is appreciated in order for him to realise that he can't slap etc. I have two older children at the school and both have attended the same nursery. We had no behavioural issues with his siblings. His sister I remember was not great at sitting still for periods of time, I can remember, which is normal I suppose for nursery starters. His brother (was 6 in August) is a totally different character and more softer natured, he has taken the brunt of the slapping.

He slaps/ wave his arms in windmill motion, when he get excited/frustrated. I let his nursery teacher know this at our initial meeting before he started. He did slap on his first day, the second day he slapped the teacher. The teacher had to report that he hit her and the Assistant Head had a word with me to say that if it happened again I would be getting a call. He had a good day yesterday (only told off once), and I hoped he was getting better. Until today when I got the phone call. When my DH and I collected him, the Assistant Head was holding his hand and apologised and said that the reason we had been called was that he had scratched the teaching assistant (probably while slapping), while he was on the Time out. I don't know yet what let up to Time out. I have known the TA for years and she is lovely and caring and gentle (she was there at the same time as my DD and DS). The AH mentioned that DS had been holding his hand all the time whilst waiting for us to arrive and that he had eaten a banana and was absolutely calm and happy. We are ok to bring him back tomorrow and see how we go. The AH seemed quite understanding and supportive.

The only thing I can think of is that he was tired (he was up during the night to go to the toilet) and maybe hungry. As when he was at home he would probably have had more food. I'm not making excuses but just trying to rationalise it. He has a willful character and has been more of a handful than my DD and DS1. But seems brighter (I suppose it comes from having two older siblings). He can recognise some letter sounds, and only needs to be shown something once and he gets it. He gets himself ready in the morning and loves going to Nursery (despite being at home before this time). The first day he went in and didn't even look back to see where I was. When he has slapped in the past, I have told him to apologise, but also he laughed at me when I told him off. I am hoping it is a phase. He is a very sociable, happy and lovable kid. He loves dancing and can sit for ages with play doh or a jigsaw. His speech is good and he has a large vocab range. He was fine at his 2-2.5 development check. The thought that he maybe on the Autism spectrum has crossed my mind. In perspective he has been in the nursery environment for a total of 12 hours.

Sorry for the long rambling post just want to hear from MM's going through the same thing. I read somewhere that there should be a support group for 3 year olds:). I think it is more Terrible Threes and not Terrible Two.

I came here for the same reason! Dd is 3 and her behaviour has taken a turn for the worse lately. My phrase at the moment is I don't like how you're talking to me. Everything is I want. If she doesn't get what she wants she has a complete hissy fit. Even giving her choices doesn't work. So for example a recent one, do you want the stairs or the lift? The lift. So we get in the lift cue breakdown coz she really wanted the stairs and changed her mind. Do you want apple or orange? Apple. No! I wanted orange, meltdown. You get the jist.

Since ds came along 8 months ago the discipline has gone a bit out of the window so I'm trying to get back on track with it. I guess she has a lot of threats that aren't carried out so I'm trying to carry through on time outs. But with the baby I just don't have the time to keep taking her back to time out or deal with her screaming. Time out consists of her leaving as soon as I walk away or sitting and screaming at the top of her lungs and me threatening more time there. I've given her a timer "Mr dinger" but she just tosses it across the room and it breaks each time so I have to put it back together.

We're on holiday at the moment and the meltdowns have gone off the scale. They are on a whole new level. I thought the ones at home were bad. These ones are just purely embarrassing and make us look completely incompetent with an extremely badly behaved child. I'm at a loss to know how to handle her at the moment.

I see a common thread in a lot of the replies here: a focus on punishments and rewards. Consider the Alfie Kohn books Punished by Rewards and Unconditional Parenting. It may be that your children are rebelling against the very systems you are trying to use to get them to behave. Some children get very aggressive and angry about perceived manipulation from a very young age (I know, I was one of them, even though the "manipulation" was for what I know now were very reasonable things).

I'll have a look at them womb. I think it's very easy to get stuck in a negative cycle, would be interesting to look at alternatives.

Marytheresa I'm surprised the nursery made you come and get him, especially as he'd only been there a few days with no nursery experience. We sometimes have aggressive children where I work and if time out doesn't work we try something else. What would they have done if you weren't able to get him? Sorry, that probably isn't helpful in the slightest, DS could be quite aggressive so I do sympathise. I just think it's a bit harsh of them when he hasn't had much time to settle.

Hi

"Womb" and "Sausage": Thanks for your comments! I'll check out the books. Very enlightening. The school is quite strict, but I was wondering that too ie why didn't they give him time to calm down then re-focus.
It sounds if he completely lost it, which I don't recognise in him at all. He has never been a tantrum child and the terrible twos kind of went past. In the past if he was getting a bit frustrated I would always re-direct his attention or make a funny noise or face.I had to go and pick him up again on Friday, strangely it was at the same time as the previous time. The Head Teacher said when I arrived 'Don't worry Mum, we'll get there". The teacher is going to print off pics of herself and the TA's with sad and happy faces and the family have to do the same, and we will use these to show him how slapping/not slapping affects people.

When I was taking him to the Children Centres before he was great, and would spend the whole hour and half, flitting between play doh, painting, playing houses etc. Once he made a 'play doh pie' and took it to the other room in the playgroup to put it in the toy oven:). One day he even took the chair away from the toy dining table (like a waiter would do) so one of the other kids could sit down. I would take him to this particular one, once a week. Initially he did slap young kids, but he stopped after a few times being there. He would get excited at the end when there was the singing/dancing bit. He would be the only one dancing in the middle of the floor and waving his arms and clapping. (he was one of the oldest, then though:) The Children's Centre teacher who ran it was great. One day I said to her 'Oh no he is putting the water in the sand table' She said that's ok, he is being a scientist'. I thought that was fab. I was thinking of getting her to have word with his teacher, to compare notes.

"Little pink" - My heart goes out to you. It sounds as if she doesn't like a change in the routine or environment that she is used to. Was she happy to go on holiday or was there any negativity before hand maybe? I'm trying TO with DS2 at mo. Yesterday, I put him on the step, as soon as my back was turned he jumped off laughing as he did. I explained to him that he must sit there until I tell him he can move. He continued to jump off. After about 10 attempts he eventually sat on the step for 1 minute (the time I had decided to give him). Maybe you could try re-direction, like just make up stuff. Once while DS2 was bouncing on the bed while I was trying to get him into his pjs, I made a shushing noise and talked in a whisper and told him that there was a cat outside He loves cats and dogs). He stopped straight away and tried to see the cat out of the window:) Then I said the cat is sleepy and he wants to go to bed:) this calmed him down. My Six year old DS1 had a public melt down on way to school on Friday am, as he discovered his sister was going to a party and he was not. I just kept walking (you can't really do this was a three year old though) and ignoring him, he was squealing at the top of his voice, and chucked his school hat on the ground. I thought it was hilarious but I didn't show this. DD was trying to console him, bless her. DS2 didn't care, he just wanted to get to school and kept saying 'Come on!' at the top of his voice. As soon as we got to the school gate DS1 stopped moaning (I think he takes it from me). Just like a tap turning off. TOTAL DIVA.

See how we go this week:) Baby steps.

Would your DS respond to something visual like a sand timer when in time out? I have one of those ones that releases a drop of coloured liquid down a spiral. I bought it ages ago for something else but DD loves it. I put her in time out the other day with the instruction that she had to tell me when it was finished. Amazingly it actually worked and she calmed down really quickly. It doesn't solve the overall problem but I'm definitely trying it again.

Description was terrible, this is what I mean. They sell them on amazon for about £5

Hi SS

Thanks for the great suggestion, funny enough I have a small one of these as a key ring, and DS2 took a shine to it a while ago. His DS and DD never took much notice of it. Seen it on Amazon and ordered it today:)

Quick update. Teacher understands now that he gets a bit fractious after about 90 mins and so watch him now for signs of hyperactivity/tiredness. I'm monitoring his sugar in take too. Which seems to have helped.

It's kind of two steps forward one step backwards at moment. He had three good days in a row, then on Thursday, I picked him up and teacher mentioned that she wasn't there at the start of the session, and that a new teacher was present and DS2 was sent out of class after he slapped, the new teacher on the face:(. Had a good day on Friday (yesterday). The teacher said that near the end of the session he was getting a bit hyper/tired, and so another teacher took him outside and picked leaves up together. Which is the kind of thing he loves to do. Any task like that he loves to help with. Hopefully as he gets a bit older/emotionally mature, he will be able to last the whole session with the class. They don't have nap times in the Nursery.