don't know what to do about my ds

[linzoid]

My ds1 is 8 yrs old and i just don't know what to do for the best with him. He has always been difficult to deal with really, as a baby he cried and cried and cried and never slept until about 2. He has always been very strongwilled and flies of the handle very very quickly when things aren't going his way. He is very mature for 8, he sounds much older if you talk to him and he looks older too. At school they think he is the star pupil, top of the class and perfectly behaved. He is the one that tells over the others usually, never normally joining in with the mischief iyswim. But, he drives me crazy, we just can't get on with each other. He talks to me, dh and ds2 as though he is the parent. He goes into a rage over hardly anything getting himself all worked up all the time. Last night he didn't want to go to bed ( and i am firm that 8:30 is bedtime) and he argued and argued until eventually he was in a right state saying he wished he could be free and he wished he could kill himself. He is really jealous of ds2(5) and i think thats why he is constantly horrid to him, not that ds2 is perfect of course! but he is forever making out that ds2 is treated better. I do my best to be fair with them both and i love them both but i feel more connected to ds2 somehow, He has gone to school again on the verge of tears because i told him off for interfering with ds2 (allways playing the dad!) and it all turned into an argumaent with him. He never talks to me about stuff, there feels like this distance between us and i just can't seem to fix things no matter what i try. He's recently started talking to me in this baby voice alot too, calling me mummy (hasn't done for a while) and i realise he may be just trying to be affectionate but i keep telling him off for it, it grates! ds2 just makes friends with everyone, joins in with sport etc and is a typical 5 year old but ds1 is just the opposite. I really feel for ds1 and i want to help him. He recently went to play with my friends son and they rang up this little girl we know from upstairs and was swearing and stuff down the phone at her, i was so shocked, i feel like i don't really know him sometimes, that was well out of character!
sorry for rambling on, thanx if you got this far.

linzoid, I do understand how you are feeling and have felt this way about my ds at times. I would say reflect on what he is doing it sounds like he is attention seeking and doesn't care what way he gets the attention like the swearing down the phone- want's a reaction from you and it sounds like my ds at times wants to be the boss and test boundaries. My ds is like this and we have just has an assessment the only difference is has been badly behaved at school as well.
It turns out he wants to be in control and is intelligent to know what buttons to push. Sounds like you too have an intelligent boy on your hands too and a star pupil- it's not all bad. The advice I have been given is to get them involved in something of interest and give them choices and mean what you say, stay consistant. I really hope this helps LARSXX

gosh he sounds like a teenager! I think lars is probably right though he is an intelligent boy and clearly knows which buttons to push and thinks that he can push his boundaries all the time - such as bedtime. I really feel for you - it must be heart breaking for him to keep pushing you all the time - but I think lars' advice is good, try to get an activity that you perhaps only do with him and give him consistent messages and don't give in - you are the parent - watch out for him playing you off against dh.

I did joke the other day actually that he is like kevin the teenager. it doesn't help that my mum thinks i am too strict with him. I only really allow sweets as a treat at weekends and of course all the kids round here seem to have their own money to go off to the shop with and buy whatever they want, i don't let him go to the shop alone yet either. I have set rules about sweets (eating), bedtimes, time spent in front of the computer etc and i feel like i am the only parent like this and i'm sure other parents think i am too uptight. maybe i am but i'm stubborn too and won't give in and change what i think is right. hmmm wondering where ds1 gets it from now

hi linzoid, read this yesterday but didn't have to time to post, so am finally catching up with you. My dss displays very similar behaviour although we also have had behavioural problems at school, at times. Everything is fine for dss if everything is going his way, he can do his own thing and we stay off his back. Sounds fine doesn't it but, when you've got a child who refuses to do everything and anything even the simplist of tasks like cleaning teeth, it really gets you down. I know his behaviour is nothing to do with our parenting skills, I have another dss and ds, both who are angels in comparison. I really have to make a constant effort to not compare his behaviour with theirs. Along with the oppositional type behaviour, dss was also having the most extreme tantrums, terrifying really, with threats to kill himself and increasing levels of violence, that lead us to go to our GP to ask for help. Enough was really enough. Interestingly, my dss like your ds is v. intelligent, however, it turns out he may actually have some sort of learning difficulty that we were not aware of and in school he has (secretly) found it hard to keep up to the other kids (a v. bright bunch). We are currently still going through the process of having him assessed and he has had some one-to-one therapy-type sessions which have made a big difference to his behaviour generally, although he threw a book at me and stormed off/slammed the door last night!! but at least he came and said sorry, he was never ever remorseful for his behaviour previously.
My advice to you is that if you have a child that wishes he were dead, he needs some sort of help and so do you. Keep a diary of his behaviour over a 2/4 week period and go see your gp with or without him. HTH

I think he sounds very unhappy tbh. I do think that it might be a good idea to stop telling him off so much - ie when he's bossing his brother and not actually hurting him (I think IME little children often mind being bossed less than we think) and certainly when he calls you mummy. He might want to be more babyish because he thinks you will love him more if he is - like his little brother. I don't think it is inappropriate for him to call you mummy. My stepdaughter still calls her dad Daddy at age 12 and wants to be cuddled like a baby sometimes. Maybe he does need some babying atm. It's quite a big thing for an eight year old to be so grown up all the time. Perhaps when he calls you mummy in a baby voice you could bring yourself to say something like 'Yes, baby boy?" and offer him a cuddle. Also find something you do like doing together - playing cards, cooking - anything that makes you feel friendly and relaxed. And yes, maybe it is time to bend the rules a little now and again - I'm not saying let him go to bed at 10pm - but let him feel he has some degree of control and say in his life and negotiate over the things that don't really matter. If he's so intelligent, why not ask him what he thinks is fair on some issues. He might be surprisingly reasonable. Is there anything he likes to do with his little brother that might nurture a stronger bond there too?

I had no idea what to say on this thread but wanted to say something reassuring. Then I read alohas post and thought it was lovely and just what I would like to say if i could find the words. I know it's easy sometimes to give advice when you're on the outside but i think Alohas post is very wise and worth trying at least. Lots of luck and love, x

Linzoid, just wanted to say you had some really good advice on here, like keeping the dairy for his behaviour,etc. I think a few of us have experienced similar behaviour with our own children which may be some comfort to you to know that you are not alone.
As for the sweet thing I'm also very strict about this as well which is good for my ds as he knows where he stands on this subject.
If it gets really bad speak to GP, but after undergoing assessments with my ds it all starts to fit into place why he behaves in such a way. . Sometimes people can be quick to label a child which I am guilty of doing myself, I was convinced there was sorrying wrong with my ds, but turns out to be he is very clever and is good at fooling adults.Do try the advice offered by all and advice given to me is try and not get into a confrontation- hard I know, but they usually like the power it brings. Good luck and keep us posted Larsxx

Linzoid - your little boy reminds me of a child on the little angels series on BBC3 - maybe you saw it? The advice to his parents was be firm on the essentials and cut him a bit of slack on the rest. They used all the usual stuff eg star charts to re-inforce good behaviour. The thing that rang a bell with me is when you talked about what your ds was like as a baby. On the programme the mother said she had found her son hard to deal with from the start and as a result had got into a pattern of behaviour with him that she was unaware of - like you she never really connected. I think the positive thing from the programme was that she really turned it around by recognising this and making special effort to give him positive attention, cuddles, one to one time etc. don't know whether this helps.

That should read 'something wrong'- sorry!!!!
jimmychoos when was the TV programme on? are they going to repeat it at all, I wished I had seen it it sounds really interesting. larsxx

Linzoid you are not the only "strict" one,we have rules about too much tv-computer etc and a sweety day a week that we stick to.

I have a 9 yr old so I know how they can push you spmetimes but I wanted to say what Aloha has said so well so I'll echo Thomcat-over to you Aloha.Good luck,with just a minimum of effort on your part I'm sure you'll find a closer bond with your son number one.

Lars - it's on BBC and at the moment they seem to be repeating them quite a lot at 8.30pm.

BBC3!! sorry...

I really agree about cutting the slack over less important things. It doesn't mean you still can't be strict over the big, important things. IME what's a big important thing will depend on the individual child. I might get angry with my 10 year old for not doing his homework but I don't push my 4 year old to look at his school reading books if he doesn't want to.

You might want to review what's now important for your 8 year old and adjust accordingly. Is a strict 8.30 bedtime still worth a huge fight? If you get the youngest to bed earlier and the oldest goes up at 9.00 or later, will that work better? will your son feel privileged and happier? will you enjoy a bit more time alone with him in the evenings? My two sons have a bath together, then I put the youngest to bed and read him his story while the oldest goes back downstairs and watches TV for half and hour. The youngest gets a long chunk of my undivided attention, but the oldest gets a later night though no story read to him now. That keeps them both happy.

With such a big gap between my two sons - one just turned 10 and the other will be 5 in August - I know the older one can lord it over the younger one. There is friction from time to time but I fully expect this. 4 and 5 year olds are difficult for anyone to live with. Look at all the threads on here about them! All those parents at their wits end. Why should my 10 year old not feel intense irritation towards his youngest brother sometimes? He is far from an an adult himself, he is thrown together with this much younger person for hours at a time, he has to share a bedroom with him! It would be totally unrealist of me IMO to expect harmony between the two all the time and for the oldest to exhibit grown up restraint and reason all the time towards his little brother. And my younger son finds a big, loud 10 year old irritating too - and why not? A big loud 10 year old gets on anyone's nerves sometimes.

I really try and remember this. Remember that the 4 year old has different needs to the 10 year old. I am quite open with both sons that their needs are different and so are my expectations. But it's because of their age and nothing else, so that's fair. IME this keeps them happy with me and with each other and we don't have much jealousy (yet). Perhaps my sons aren't the jealous type. The oldest knows he gets more freedom and has more toys because he has had 10 years worth, but set against that, he knows he has more work to do and must be more grown up in his behaviour and set an example to his younger brother. (ie I sometimes expect him to help his brother clear up mess even if it was the youngest one alone who made the mess). The youngest knows he gets less freedom, and has fewer toys as yet, but also knows less is expected of him for the time being.

I don't know how differently you treat your two, but keeping my sons different ages in mind helps me a lot. That doesn't mean I have stopped babying and cuddling the older son. I think he needs it especially as he sees me cuddling his younger brother a lot. When he gets a bit of tlc, his mood really changes - he can't stay stroppy for long, so if you think your son wants a cuddle, don't hold back. Of course if your son talks in a baby voice simply to wind you up, ignore it at that moment and wait for a more relaxed time alone with him to baby him.

As for your oldest treating your youngest like he was his dad, can you turn this into a positive? dads are not just bossy, they are caring and protective and capable. I hate it when my 10 year old starts shouting at my 4 year old and ordering him to go to his room or tidy up his shoes. It sounds so arrogant. But I try and turn it round by getting the oldest to cook the youngest breakfast at weekends (because he likes cooking) for instance. He is still bossing around the youngest and can still be the grown up, (I hear cries of 'now EAT that sandwich I have just made you)' but at least it's in a more helpful way.

I am rambling and telling you things you know already, so I will stop. Just want to end by saying I hope you are able to get time alone with each of your sons. That IME is vital for building separate, strong relationships with them. And that in turn lessens the rivalry when they are thrown together.

Tigermoth - this note is sooo helpful (and I ddint even start the thread).

You always sound so togethr with it all

Kizziex

well, I'm together only in a loose kind of way!

thanks kizzie.

Tigermoth - agree such wise words.

I have just read this thread and can't believe it - linzoid's ds sounds just like my ds only he's 12. He bosses my dd (9) around as if he's her dad, puts on the baby voice and says mummy in a very strange way that really winds me up. He is also very clever and well behaved at school but if he doesn't get his own way at home he behaves like a 2 year old having a tantrum. He will shout and when you tell him to stop, he shouts more. So we tell him to go to his room for 10 mins, and he shouts even more. It escalates and before long, he is having to stay in his room for an hour. The other punishment is withdrawal of pocket money- so sometimes he ends up with nothing. Neither punishment seem very satisfactory - does anyone have any other suggestions?
Also, he seems to have difficulty keeping friends - his friendships don't seem to last.
He is extremely jealous of our dd who is great company, good at school and sport - and very popular.
Is this maybe a first child/second child thing to some extent?
He never wishes he was dead but he does tell us he hates us in the heat of the moment. I would never have said that to my parents, so I find it quite hard to take.
Sorry, I'm rambling too - but it is so hard to know how to handle it.