Ds is "Cognitively and muscially very gifted but....."

[bobsmum]

His behaviour is worrying his teachers at nursery. This was at his review a few weeks back.

Ds was 4 in September and started nursery 5 mornings a week in August.

Unlike most of his peers he has only been to playgroup twice a week and a music class so my HV already had had concerns about his ability to socialise. When she heard his speech and language at 3 she said he was incredibly advanced, but said it in quite a concerned tone of voice adding "you obviously spend a lot of time with him".

However as he has always seemed emotionally quite young and he's a boy I deliberately waited until his pre school year to start him at nursery. He loves going and has settled in well.

Anyway, he's very bright and strangely musically talented, but has just started kicking off with 2 year old type tantrums. He just cannot cope with any kind of change - ie one activity stopping or things just not going his way.

His teacher says she's concerned that the nursery environment is stifling him and has referred him to some kind of specialist (first stage intervention?) who will work with him one to one and tailor some of the nursery content to his needs.

What do I do? Will ds be the naughty boy of the class or the weird geek boy with no friends? The lack of social skills really worries me - is this something that just can't be taught despite all my best efforts?

The way he's going, there's no way he can start school next year, although intellectually he's miles ahead of his peers. He just can't sit still unless he's really engaged by something and that's not how the world works.

Does anyone else have a child like this? Any coping strategies?

the only thing I want to say is that you should relax as many many children hit nursery and have to 'learn to socialise' .. it isn't an innate talent

of course if this is his first experience of the laws that rule the nursery .. ie many children, few adults .. lots of different noise, activities .. it will take him a good while to get to grips with it

the fact that they are picking up on it and looking for strategies to help him is all for the good

I think its one of those things you may just have to live with and see how it pans out

but relax safe in the knowledge that it isn't THAT big a deal

I think that's what's hit me so hard. I always knew what things he found difficult, but I never imagined it would be an "official" problem needing referrals etc. I just thought it was down to him being at nursery for 8 weeks and all his peers having been there since 2.5. Part of me hopes it's the nursery being over zealous, but part of me is looking at him differently already

this is amazing. I have exactly the same problem with my 3 yr old dd. She strated preschool 2 afternoons a week in Sept. Teachers say how clever she is but she cannot cope with change and her reaction to, say stopping for snack time can be quite extreme. At home the issues can be there but not on such a scale. Again the teachers have been v good and have tried different techniques but have now asked for a Special Educational Need person to observe and give some advice. I've agreed to this although initially being v upset at the thought but i figure if anything can help her cope with the social rules/skills of things then its got to be the best thing. I know exactly how u feel. Each time i go to pick her up i think how did she do today and just hope that it wasnt too bad. The keyworker says that dd is a lovely girl, v caring and v bright its just this reaction to changing to something she doesnt want to do. I dont necessarily have any strategies for that at preschool (at home it's a lot easier and i'm quite firm with her and generally this works and doesnt develop into a full blown tantrum). Its so good to hear that i'm not the only one though. Please keep me posted and i will you! We have to stick together!!!!

Knat - thank you so much - it's so reassuring to know I'm not on my own!

I can deal with ds' outbursts at home - mainly because I know what brings them on and we can either avoid the triggers or give him a warning before something happens, or a firm telling off in the middle of an episode stops him and he transforms into the most lovely, apologetic and remorseful wee boy again. He seems almost bemused by the whole tantrum and often quite distraught and worried that he can't stop himself.

I know wht you mean about the nursery pick up time. I go with my heart in my mouth waiting for the usual "well he found tidy up time a little difficult today.."

The most bizarre thing is that if he was a week or so younger and we still lived in England - he'd have been at primary school for 3 months by now and probably expelled. I'm relieved at least that we have until next August to sort something/anything out...

Firstly, I would say that he's very young, this is all quite new to him and it all takes time so don't panic.

What do you think the HV is getting at? My instinct is that his carers are hinting at Aspergers or something similar BUT from what you have told us, it is just as likely to be as a result of a warm loving early environmenta s that, in which case time will allow your DS to catch up and learn those skills.

Now, a boy that can't sit still- hmmmmm, that's really not an issue, bobsmum. Even ds2's teacher (he's NT, aged 5) says that; she worries about the ones who find it tooe asy to sit still, coz that's not how boys work.

Social skills are teachable. Adopting certain strategies such as social stories that are used to help ASD children are worthwhile WITHOUT implying any medical issues with your son, they're just well developed tools. ASD involves something called a triad of impairments, social skills is but one of these, yet the tools that have been developed to deal with this are just useful.

He sounds like a bright, loving, gifted child who needs a bit of time to settle in. One to one is never a bad thing, it's a gift.

PS can I just say- mychild with AS and no friends- not a weird geek OK?

social stories- an excellent idea- google carole/carol?/ grey (sorry am dashing, will look later). Also if he;s finding transitioning difficult then nursery could try a visual timetable, and/or visual timer (+ verbal countdown) to warn that an activity is going to end/change.

apologies- brief, but ds3 is being difficult- must go!

have a look

now must go do some work

remember, many of them have been to nursery or childcare since babies, mine all did, which makes a huge difference I think in being used to cooperating in a group (not saying it's better or worse or trying to start one of those debates but some of the others will have been doing the group care thing since before they could crawl.

managed to find the carole gray stuff

fennel is right bobsmum; in the nicest possible way, many many children are now 'institutionalised' in that they have been used to being left in organised childcare, some all day from very young indeed. Your ds is simply catching up, by the sounds of things.

He sounds so similar to my ds it's spooky (though not the musical giftedness, ds hiding his great talent well here ) and your snooty HV is just stupid to imply that a mum who spends so much time talking to her child as a human beingas you have obviously done, is doing something WRONG!

Well done, I say, you have a bright boy who simply has to learn the social rules. You have given him a great, confidence boosting start in life by giving him your time and attention; now he has to learn that he is not the centre of the universe and to fit in with others....it is a hard lesson for him, but he will learn it. He is very young indeed.

Don't worry about the 'referral' business too much, I know it's hard. So long as ds gets the help he needs to settle, he will be fine....

I did bring up AS etc with his teacher and she said that wasn't an issue because on a one to one level he comunicates well, is empathetic etc. But she did wonder whether all the stuff he comes out with was just rote learning, but that's just the way he speaks. He sounds like he lives in a Famous 5 book : "Did you know mummy that it's not just a hen who lays eggs, but a snake does too - isn't that amazing?" He's a 6 year old stuck with a 2 year old's emotional maturity.

His only real warning sign for me on that point is occasional bouts of repetitive behaviour (twirling/spinning things) and a bit of hand flapping when he's concentrating on something.

Like the idea of social stories. He loves books. At the moment I've just been exlaining to him at length what happens in certain situations and hoping for the best.

His teacher has already suggested more linear timetabling for him. At the moment all the children are expected to plan their own day using a planning board with photos. Ds may benefit more from seeing the activities in order rather than strewn across a big A2 sheet of paper.

Ho hum. Thanks everyone. I've read these sorts of "OMG my child's not doing xxx" posts for years and just never imagined that I would have to face the same sort of thing.

And we're still on a physio waiting list, but that's a whole nother thread!!

SSU - x -posts - great post. In my heart of hearts I'm hoping that's the root of the problem. I"m almost angry that having done what I thought was best for ds (as loads of research seems to suggest) and made loads of sacrifices to do so, that he may be being penalised for having "missed out" on being in nursery from 6 weeks old.
He's had the first 4 years of his life being complimented on how lovely, well adjusted, clever blah blah blah he was and as soon as he goes mto nursery he's a problem.

But I must stress again, he absolutely loves going and we've never had a sobbing "don't leave me mummy" moment unlike many of his other friends when being dropped off.

Right will go away and wash nappies and cool off and come back later.

I felt the same as you bobs.....having worked damn hard with ds, and had major financial problems because I wasn't working enough for us to cope, when he hit 3 and I started him at pre-school I had a sense of achievement for getting there and having worked really hard to give him that start in life.

When he started ds was very like yours - and I found myself being given 'looks' from the staff, who obviously felt he was a challenge. However you have to remember that of course the staff would rather have obedient, compliant little children who have been nicely 'broken in' by being at nursery from 6 weeks on..who doesn't like an easy life??? But just because your ds is presenting them with a challenge or two does NOT mean you have done anything wrong or that he is a problem.

good luck, I am sure it will be fine. My ds is now in reception and is very compliant for the teachers, as far as I can see.

I am taking a break from teaching and working oart time in our local playgroup while mine are little. Loads and loads of 4 yr olds (girls and boys) find change/confrontation/dealing with social scenarios difficult. It is all part of growing up. For that matter, lots of the 15+ yr olds that I taught found exactly that. Recently we changed the session around to vary things - some of th emums got really stressed out when on duty because it had "all changed" and they didn?t know what they were doing! Perhaps some people go with the flow and others crave routine and habit..
Personally, I would ignore the HV comment and tone of voice re: you spending time with him. Sure, personally I believe that those children who attend a playgroup/nursery regularly and get into the habit of mixing with other children do develop social skills more easily and quickly, two sessions is better than none at all.
I hope the nursery is developing sensible strategies to support him. For example, with those who find change difficult, it is a good practise to warn them - ie let them know that very soon we will be doing X and so they need to think about stopping what they are doing, wash hands/pack it away/ count to ten to finish bouncing on the trampoline etc etc and be prepared for the change over. Equally, change over can be stressful if they don?t have clear instructions - eg. stop painting and pack up - too vague. They need prep time to stop, explained that they need to wash and dry hands, take apron off, then praise for doing it, explained whether they need to help pack up/go and sit on the carpet etc - too often the staff are busy whizzing around tidying while children are at a loose end - can be stressful and confusing. So often arguments bt. children occur at these dead times because they are hanging around unoccupied or not knowing what to do.
I would ask them (nicely of course!) how they were handling the stopping and starting of activities, how they were going to help him deal with situations where things aren?t going his way. We have a particularly challenging (and very bright) 4 yr old who cannot stand to "lose" any game/scenario and finds sharing difficult. On advice from our area Senco advisor, we were told to help him by looking for the triggers and intervening rather than merely dealing with the consequences and the symptoms of his behaviour, help "retrain" him into coping and learning to share - eg, seeing another child about to join the activity and pick up a train say "hello X, come and join us, Y and I would love you to play..." hand a toy and take the stress out of it so Y can see you are happy for the other child to play and it is all OK..

Hope my garbling is helpful. So often in nurseries and playgroups children have difficulty because the situations are mismanaged by staff and they are the ones who are better off changing their tactics rather than putting all the emphasis on the child and the home.

I'm reluctant to type this and I am sorry and don't want to worry you, and his nursery teacher knows him far better than anyone else and I'm not ane xpert but that type of speech CAN sometimes be a sign of AS.

Which I will reiterate doesn't mean anything but I know my son does it, he has a language age of 10 - 11 and reading age of 3 / actual of almost 7.

BUT HE HAS EMPATHY

That's good. very good.

My ds2's yr1 teacher earnestly told me that she thought he may have Special Needs because of various aspects of his behaviour.

This would have worried me if it hadn't been for the fact that ds1 behaved exactly the same at that age and I knew that ds2 was streets ahead intellectually!

Both mine are bright, lively and have a lovely group of friends. They are 11 & 13 now and in sets 1 or 2 (of 7) for all subjects.

Teachers can sometimes get a fixation about a particular type of behaviour. I know plenty of 'geek' children with loads of friends.

Without knowing your son of course - I'd say he's just got a little catching up with his social skills to do. Don't worry.

lemontart, what a great post. And that's so true, I'm sure many many times the 'problems' are in fact the staff trying to make the kids deal with stuff that they actually aren't able to!

with my ds, his first nursery teacher gave me the hairy eyeball when she said "he is a little boy who likes routine"....ermmm, yes! That's children all over, isn't it. She made it seem a big issue that she ended up having to explain to him each day, what the routine was and what to expect next....in my naivete, I had expected this as a minimum of what the teachers would do for the kids! How can they expect the children to leave off one activity and go to another, straight away, without warning? Many kids, like my ds, find this disorienting, worrying and it makes them insecure.

I guess the more compliant kids simply get on with it, whereas ds would kick up a bit of a stink. Good for him, I say.

But yes, my ramble is basically saying that it may well be the staff creating the problem and they may have to deal with your ds in a more thoughtful way rather than 'time to move the herd to the next thing'...

Glad they're doing the timetable bobsmum. I think the social stories would be worth looking at too- they're a fantastic tool.

with my dd they tried the timetable thing which worked for a couple of sessions but then she lost interest. They are good in telling her whats coming next but at home i' found its sometimes better to just lead her by the hand and take her to the next hing (ie eating a meal, or going the toilet, or washing hands etc). Then she hasn't had time to start an argument!!!! Lately i have found this the best. DD is at preschool now and going to pick her up in an hour - see how we did today!!!!