We have had serious words tonight ... ds2 stealing and lying about it!

[roisin]

Ds2 (7) stole ds1's (9) best Dr Who card, took it to school and traded it! (And ultra-rare one!) Then claimed he'd found the card on the playground at school.

Needless to say we have had serious words.

I was really shocked though as to how long he persisted with the lies. What fun!

(DS1 doesn't tell lies and doesn't really understand the concept. He believed ds2's web of lies completely, and was astonished to discover the truth. ... and not best pleased either.)

why are the youger ones such better liars. DD could lie the pants off DS, and he's nearly 3 years older.

Does sound like the sort of thing dd2 would do though her lies wouldn't stick!

Aw Roisin, you have my sympathy. It's the kind of thing I could imagine dd2 would do (she will try to lie her way out of trouble sometimes, but dd1 would never do that).

Do you think the serious words have had an effect? Can you appeal to his better nature (dd2 responds well to "you have really upset dd1" type words).

Try not to worry overmuch; most kids go through that kind of phase (I know I did )

He did eventually come round, calm down, and admit to the true sequence of events. Lots of tears - he was exhausted by the whole affair.

I was just amazed at the level to which he was convinced by his own lies: he was extremely angry with dh for not believing him, and got himself into quite a state about it - even though he had no claim to righteous indignation, as that is the preserve of the righteous!

I'm not at all worried - vaguely amused. It's just a new one on us
I hope the message has got across and we won't have a repeat performance ... at least not for a while anyway.

How strange our DD1 can lie for England though DS1 who is 4yrs older never does (or never gets caught )

Crikey we've had another showdown tonight.

Any words of wisdom or tips from anyone who's been through this?

Today's events:
c.2pm ds2 sat down to do his homework, I checked on him about 10 mins later and he'd nearly finished. Then 10 mins later he was upstairs playing - no sign of the homework. He admitted he got frustrated, but "couldn't remember whether he'd ripped up the homework, screwed it up, or folded it up small". But he'd definitely hidden it somewhere ... but he couldn't remember where!

8 hrs on and he still hasn't remembered
He's been in his room for most of the time, has missed watching Robin Hood and has been banned from going to see Fireworks Display tomorrow.

We have stressed that what we are cross about it the fact that he's telling lies, not that he's chucked his homework in the bin (or whatever he has done with it).

Aaarrrggghhh!

my ds whos now 12 has been sneaky like this since about the age of 8! glad hes not the only one

What do you do about it 7up? I absolutely need to tackle this: it is just completely unacceptable for me I'm afraid.

I have a deceitful colleague at work, and it drives me nuts. I just can't be doing with it at all.

Help! This is really getting to me now

I need someone to come on and say "My ds did this - we had 3 big crises, then he got the message and has been as honest as the day is long ever since ... 20 yrs so far!"

hi roisin, im afraid your ds might be like mine and its something he'll learn is wrong as he gets older.

my ds isnt as bad now hes 12, and how ever much i nagged him and grounded him, took away niceties like ps2 it didnt make any difference

i know how annoying it is and i can only say from my experience with my ds that now hes older he knows its wrong

p.s im clever now when i know hes lied eg: halloween night he went straight to my mums after school and she said that she'd had to wash his school bag because an egg had been smashed in itby another kid. i thought mmmmmmm bet he took it to school to take round after school ready for trick or treating.

when he came home to me i said to him quite jokingly "you little monster i had some eggs missing when i went to make tea" he grinned which gave it away and he then told me "yea i took 4 to school and they smashed and my friends helped me clean my bag with loo roll".

lying little toad

I had a friend whose little boy did similar things. She worded up the police sergent took him around their and got the cop to scare the living day lights out of him one for stealing (even if it belonged to a sibling) and two for lying about it. He never did it again. He is now 18.

I wonder what today will have in store ...

morning roisin im just offto eldest footie match, il check in later and see ifyou have any stories to tell me about your day

Roisin, you wanted it, you get it!

But not my ds, me!

I stole a pocket of beads from my nursery class (I was younger, true, but I did know it was stealing and wrong)

I tried to lie my way out of it, was caught out, and was made to take the beads back, publically appologise to the whole class for having been selfish and never do it again!

Guess what, honest as the day is long. me!

They do lie so well, don't they? Mine did it, 'I didn't cut my hair', 'But the hair is missing, and is down the back of the TV'

But she kept it up!

You just have to keep on keeping on, I'm afraid!

My Dd1 went through a phase of lying too. Like your Ds she was usually utterly convinced she was telling the truth even when she had been found out.

Eventually she went too far and told a lie about something a teacher was supposed to have said to her and a friend (there was a thread on here).
Even when I had discovered the lies she still insisted she was telling the truth for a while.
It took me telling her I had made an appointment to see the head that got her to confess.
I was horrifed and she was made to apologise to the teacher in question and her own teacher, and she was also sent to bed at 7pm for a week and banned from watching tv.

Since then we haven't had any major incidents really at all, sometimes she will start to tell a lie and then stop half way through.

Oh Roisin- hard one! One of my sons occasionally excels in this direction but we can usually get through to him by putting on a really serious, quiet voice (very unusual in this family!) and explaining through any defensive bluster that it is much more important that he is honest about what's happened than anything else. Having said that, I think my son doesn't quite get the point of not lying yet- to him doing something verbotten and not getting in trouble for it is a big and fantastic result, understandably. His moral sense just isn't quite developed enough to see beyond his fear of getting into trouble yet so I'm always aware that telling the truth is a big ask for him, even though, like you, this is something very important to me as a parent. I think we are asking children to go against common sense when we tell them not to lie in a way- no kid is going to want to be punished/in the parental bad books and I think it's quite clever in a way that they see lying as a way out of this predicament.I always praise my son massively if he does admit to something and emphasize that I love him lots even when he does evil things that I then expect him not to lie about... All very earnest and difficult and emotionally draining for all concerned I find but we do muddle through somehow and I'm sure you and ds2 will too.

Um, tbh, I think missing Robin Hood and the firework display is quite a big punishment actually, especially as he will presumably have to face his teacher's request for homework and come up with an explanation for him/her? I think I might be seeing if a tell the truth leading to mummy and daddy being so pleased that they let him go to the firework display deal is possible? Appreciate that this may not be possible though, depending on what's been agreed already! I just think this truth thing is v hard for some kids and if there is a way to lessen the emotional intensity it would be worth going for it. (And I LOVE fireworks and would have been unable to focus on anything other than the enormity of missing out on them at his age, which would have been bad for my moral education in the ways of not lying maybe.)

Thanks for all the posts: much appreciated!

I do find it extraordinarily emotionally draining.

I love fireworks, so am hoping that everyone behaves impeccably today and I can relent and we can all go together as a great family outing.

He has told the truth about a couple of little things today, so fingers crossed ...

I think it's so much more difficult simply because the 'crime' is something I care so much about. So rather than just a calm "this is what you have done and XXX is the consequence; you have a chance now to put it right (own up) and if you don't, ZZZ will be the consequence" and leave it at that; I instead heaped threat upon threat, because I simply could not believe that he wouldn't climb down and admit he was wrong. I really didn't expect to have to follow through with any of the threats ...

Hey Ho! I will have to practice being much calmer about this one I think, even though it really cuts deeply with me for some reason.

Something that our deputy head is brilliant at geiing kids to 'cough' for their crimes in school. Her technique is so cool.

She calmly says 'We know that you did it' She then pauses for an uncomfortable time.

She then calmly says, 'You will get punised for this, but you will make it much easier on yourself if you tell the truth'

The then waits and even longer, more uncofortable time.

then she says, 'Do yo uhave anything to tell me'

They always crumble. It is quite amazing!

I have started to do this yself in work and it works 95% of the time.

"I instead heaped threat upon threat, because I simply could not believe that he wouldn't climb down and admit he was wrong."

Oh how I relate to that! I reckon everyone with kids this sort of age plus has done this about one thing or another. I think it's something about them being generally quite reasonable, sensible, lovely, kind people at many levels that you can't believe it when they have completely age appropriate blind spots, especially when these coincide with the very things you are most passionate about.

Hope the boy continues to earn his entry to the firework display.

Thanks both of you. I will try those tips in future MB.

I'm delighted to report we've had no huge porkies since last Saturday. Hooray!