nearly 4 year old and nearly 6 year old pressing all my buttons

[talkingofmichaelangelo]

the background is that I have just been made redundant from a horribly stressful job with long hours. Since I was on mat leave with the little one, I have not been as hands on day to day as I would have liked.

I just need someone to talk to me about realistic child behaviour expectations please!

Both of them have a habit of ignoring me when I am telling them not to do something. This drives me absolutely potty. "don't go that way or you will knock that drink over". Child goes that way. Drink goes over. ARGH! Drives me nuts! (ok so the other thing you do is you just move the drink but often when my hands are literally full ...)

I am not looking for advice on how to get around children not doing what you ask. I am more looking for a sense check on: I personally think this is terrible behaviour and I would have been smacked. I am not going to smack my children, I try my hardest not to even shout at them (but sometimes fail) but what is reasonable in this day and age - do normal children just behave this way now? And if not, what am I doing wrong?

I know I am experiencing culture shock from being around little people more. I found maternity leave really difficult (although rewarding and enjoyable too) because I just don't like everything being messy and screamy and bitty and so on all the time. So there is an element of this and I just have to woman up and deal with it.

but on the other hand, my little one is nearly 4, and we still can't have remotely enjoyable meal times.

won't sit at the table
demands different everything (wrong cup, wrong this, wrong that) (I try to get around that by asking her to lay the table so she chooses her own, but then despite having chosen it all she can make difficulties if she suddenly perceives that the subtle value system has changed and her sister has a "higher status" mug or something)
Screams doesn't like food (yes she does, she ate 3lb of it yesterday)
Won't use cutlery
on and on and on

It's exhausting. I actually don't care what she eats at any given meal, as overall she eats well from all food groups, but the screaming and hysteria at every meal time is grating on me. I say "ok just leave it then" but that's not good enough, she has to rule things, she has to feel it's all about her and she is succeeding in upsetting everyone (or so it seems to me - I mean it's basically not about food, it is about some form of control)

I could go on and on about this but in summary

a. I do not believe that either has special needs
b. maybe I just need someone to talk some sense to me and say "kids are like that, deal with it"
c. or - any tips?
d. can I ever expect to enjoy a meal / a walk / anything normal every again? If so, when?

As an ex CM\nanny of 9dcs EY teacher and M of 3. Yes nearly 4 yr. olds can be difficult. It may be that she has missed you a lot and can't tell you but is 'showing you' If you understand me. It'll take time IMO.

Getting her to set the table herself is a brilliant idea. You can also make it all into a game (include her toys or make up stories you can act out together) e.g. Goldilocks.

Thanks ppeatfruit.
Also - they had a childminder for years, since dd2 was under 1, who has just left the country, and she is probably missing her and her children.

but is it totally normal for you to talk to 4 year olds and 6 year olds and just be totally ignored?

please don't touch that
please don't go in there
Hold my hand
Don't push me, I will fall over
don't climb that, tell me what you want and I will get it for you

• all totally ignored

if they don't respond to simple instructions at this age, will they ever? And what can / should I do about it?

btw, the 6 year old is considered to be angelically well behaved at school. it must be only me and her father she ignores. is this normal too?

Yes it is, IMO you have to put yourself in their place, they aren't dogs, if all they get are negative vibes from you both it might be too much. There's a good book called 'How to speak so your children will listen and Listen so your children will speak' or something like that.

A lot of people on here like it and always recommend it.

Oh yes it's quite normal for them to be 'good' at school or at friends' houses that's a good sign. They do need to be able to relax at home. As we all do.

My children are the same age and drive me batty. And yes, most/all/everything you are saying is normal, or within the normal range, depending on what your child's personality is like.

A lot of my angst came from what I thought my children 'should' be doing....which was based on foggy childhood memories of me "never" doing the things that they did - which, realistically, is not accurate as I can't really remember much before the age of 6.

My advice is to find other mums in the same situation, avoid the older generation (at least the judgey ones who cluck their tongues and clutch their pearls at what is ultimately 'normal' behaviour) and try and find some structure to your day wherever possible.

And eventually your expectations for ever having a good time are so low, that you will be pleasantly surprised on a more and more regular basis when things DO go well.

Good luck!

Also try to find the positive things they do and praise them, don't just pick on the 'naughty' things. If they only get attention when they're being annoying then they'll continue being a pain.

It's called positive reinforcement and it works! So try to ignore the screaming or whatever, pick your battles, don't say no to everything, and really remember to notice the good behaviour all the time, reading with them taking them out etc.

I agree wholeheartedly with ppeatfruit on this. You sound like you are not enjoying your kids - they pick up on your negative vibes. So, turn it around. Make a point of noticing the good stuff they do. Comment on what you love about them.

But also, talk to a few teachers about how to master the low I-mean-business voice. My DD went through a phase at 2.9 of ignoring me. Even when I did the count to three trick. So, I made a point of teaching her the consequences of ignoring. If she didn't come on the count of three I would pick her up, remove her to a place that wasn't fun, tell her to stay there. She would cry. I would let her cry for a minute or two then go back, get down to her eye level and say, "DD, you are here because you didn't listen to mummy. I like girls who listen and who are obedient. Are you ready to say sorry? (tears, yes mummy, I'm sorry etc). Okay give me a hug. And next time you'll listen, won't you? (yes mummy). You only need to do that a couple of times and they learn. It's not mean, just basic discipline. Show them you mean business; that they can't take the piss.

And look on Amazon to buy How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and 1-2-3 Magic. Both books are worth the investment.

The behaviour is completely normal but it is within your power to teach them how to be obedient well-behaved kids. Left unchecked it will escalate and you don't want that.

I see a lot of parents who can't be arsed with just the very basics of discipline and they're rewarded with brats. Putting in some work now will definitely have rewards later down the track. It's healthy for your kids to know that you will not be messed with.

My mum gave me a useful piece of advice when dd was doing exactly this in relation to not listening. She said always say what you want them to do rather than what you don't want them to do iyswim? So instead of saying 'don't' direct them to what you do want them to do 'play nicely' 'walk next to me' 'be kind to mummy' etc

Some of the behaviour you probably will have to learn to let go of though and save the arguments for the battles you really want to pick.

Also encourage independence, if they want to get something themselves is there away of making that happen safely?

The mealtimes sound like hard work, i would ignore all the demands, give fair warning that unless she sits down to eat her food the food will be taken away and then see it through. I have done this once or twice with my dd, she had an almighty paddy when the food vanished which I completely ignored. Once she calmed down she said sorry and was much better at mealtimes generally after that!!