normal 5 year old boy or what? I'm worried

[ernest]

My neighbour just came to me with her dd (5) and told me my ds, while they were out playing in the field in front of the house had done a wee there and then in the field and then wiggled his willy about and sprayed her a bit with wee.. I am not clear if he def. deliberatly got it on her. Obviously I am mortified that he was weeing in the field in the first place in front of other children, as well as actually on her.

I have been worried about him in many ways recently. He has started to suck his thumb again. He had stiopped for a few months, but has started again with gusto - it feels like every time I see him he's got it in or hurriedly pulling it out so I don't see.

He seems to have real problems interacting well with other kids. Whereas ds1 (1,5 years older) is Mr popular, with kids always calling for him, people rarely call for ds2. He's often told by other kids he can't join in.

He seems to have a skill for winding other kids up and getting on their nerves. Gauche and socially clumsy.

He has been known to moon, and I've obviously tried to stop this as much as possible.

I had a parents evening in June or so and it didn't go so well, the teacher saying stuff that I already knew he did like annoying other kids like sticking his wet siggy sucked thumb in their faces etc.

I don't know why he does it, what I can do to stop it. I also don't know if he's sorry, 'normal' but really immature or silly, or if there's more to it. I don't know if I should seek help for him & if so what & from whom.

His social ineptness seems to be getting more noticeable. Beofre he went to school I thought he was a lively confident bonkers boy. Now I think he has no self confidence, is awful at social interaction with other children and I fear for him.

I would say he's immature and silly .

DS2 likes to "show his butt" to people and 3 weeks into Reception last year, I found him in the playground at school pick up showing his willy to a group of girls and wiggling.

My personal guess is that the "bonkers" bit of the boy you remember annoys his classmates, they don't want to play with him, he tries harder thinking sillines = popular, they get more annoyed, he feels socially inept. Kind of a viscous circle.

i would say it was normal! my ds(5)can be very annoying and silly

He sounds pretty normal, my DS1 is a bit like this sometimes (although he's generally pretty popular). And I know of a few other boys this age who show off their bottoms/willies etc etc. I don't know how children learn to be less socially inept, though.

yes, I can see some of my ds in there (who is particularly enamoured with his rather frequent hard-ons at the moment )

did the school give you any tips on how they wanted to get his behaviour to improve? Soupy sounds right - it sounds like he is being silly to get their attention, he gets the attention and then learns it's the way to work.

Do you have friends over (1 on 1) for him to play with? I also found with ds (though he is terribly sociable) that he was far less worried about making friends than dd (only just over a year older). He may just not be ready for the whole social thing yet. 5 is still v young.

agree with foxinsocks, it's quite possible your ds is simply not interested in any real way in what others think of him, which is why he interacts with them in a bit of a 'silly' way.

It definitely sounds very normal to me, maybe alot to do with attention grabbing and maybe he even takes the 'babyish' and silly place in the family as a reaction to a more sensible and older sibling?

I wouldn't worry about him from what you said, he sounds very normal for his age....5 is still very young, particularly from the socialising point of view. Many five year olds have no clue about how to do it nicely, or no real wish for 'friends' yet...

He sounds similar to my DS2 who is also 5. He doesn't interract very well with other children. When I have seen him with them, eg at parties, the others seemt to be racing around together and DS2 buzzes around doing his own thing.

He can also be very silly and irritating. This doesn't help in his relationships with other children or with his teachers, who I think also find him quite annoying and not very rewarding to teach.

Like you, I have another son who is in the year ahead at school, who does well at school and has friends.

Don't know if I can offer any reassurance as I am worried about DS2, but you aren't alone.

My ds2 has just turned 4 and seems to be getting more annoying by the day. He is either completely perfect and amusing himself or constantly hitting his brother/doing things he shouldn't. He just started nursery in Sept and has already refused to do as the Teacher said on a couple of occasions and recently hit a girl at a party for no reason - I was mortified.

I am finding it increasingly difficult to figure out how to punish him. He has never been overly sociable but did make one really good friend at Playgroup.

Ds1 is the total opposite always very popular/centre of attention, friends with lots of girls etc.

I am really hoping it is a phase but I am starting to worry that he will never have any good friends at school. So you are not alone, hope it is a phase.

Thank you all so much for your responses. Greatly reassured that you all agree. I just hope now you're all correct. No one know how to improve this total social ineptness apart from organising for a friend to come round? problem there is the 'friends' all tend to go off with ds1 ,leaving ds2 feeling even worse.
no other tips? He seems to be trying with the thumb sucking the last couple of days. Tried to have nice family sitting round fire playing games and it was wonderful until - horror - he lost. What a bloody drama. You would think he was 2 yrs old and had had an arm severed.

Any tips for general overnight maturity and good sportsmanship?

If there were then someone could make a fortune!

I really wouldn't worry too much - your ds2 just doesn't have the same social skills as ds1, it doesn't make him abnormal.

Lots of children are very annoying and silly, but I'm sure it doesn't make any difference to how they end up as adults.

Ernest - I'm a little concerned as to why he feels he has to conceal his thumb sucking

Why does he not feel he can do this openly? It sounds like he is very anxious - and this I think is a symptom of this.

Also it seems that you have written a lot of comparisons of him vs his brother - do you think he 'knows' that you see him this way? That he is somehow less successful than his brother? That wouldn't help, IME> Being honest, there is a tinge of 'golden boy' about your DS1 which I can see would grate.

Don't worry about the losing triggering WW3 - we have exactly the same with our two Dcs who are older than your DS2. I think competitiveness just manifests itself differently in different children. We've never given in to it in our house though, but it does make playing board games a little fraught - DH and I usually don the hard hats

Well, he's almost certainly concealing the thumb sucking because I'm now really fed up with him sucking it as he visited the dentist and we were told his thumb sucking was really bad and causing dental problems and it was urgent that he stopped asap, esp before he lost the milk teeth. We talked about it. He stopped. For ages, now has started again. His thumb is now since he's restarted, bright red, really sore, the skin is peeling off. It's totally horrible, so I am on at him, as nicely and encouragingly as I can, to keep his thumb out of his mouth. It has to stop. It's one behaviour I don't think I can ignore.

I know my post made it sound like ds1 is fab & ds2 is a worry and a problem, but that's only cos atm I am worried about ds2. Because I love him madly and want him to be happy. I could've mentioned the problems with ds1. He isn't mr perfect by any means (not bad tho, lol) . I don't think at all we give either of them the impression that one is considered better than the other. AT home the problems we have with ds2 are much less. Sure we have the losing games meltdown, but I know that's normal, we have the thumb sucking and clothes chewing, again I want them to end but still I understand them. My biggest concerns & fears are his contact with the outside world. At home he is the gregarious comedian who makes us all laugh. He is really really affectionate, cuddly, loving, always rushing to help, esp with his little brother. So at home I don't think there's any rivalry & i don't compare, honestly, I only did that in the post to explain to you all why I had my concerns, and I don't have too much experience of other kids. But how he is at home is also why it's such a shock to find that outside the home he is not the funny, confident, entertaining popular mad boisterous bonkers thing, but an anxious, uncertain, 'I can't do that' boy who winds other kids up annoys them and hasn't quite found his place. My poor little boy.

But your answers have greatly reassured me and I'll be doing my best

2 things -

with the thumb sucking - talk to him about how it makes him feel, understand why he does it - and then try and work out an alternative between you.

with the rest - maybe he doesn't know how to do it as well as your DS1 - so gets awkward. How about having a friend over 1-2-1 and make sure DS1 is out, or busy with you - so that said friend can't go off with DS1. Or maybe take DS2 and a friend out - so that he can learn to interact in a more "normal" way.

And one other - talk to him about what is sociably acceptable - ie people don't like to see your willy or your bottom - they are yours to keep special for you only.

ok if any one still there, big problem. Just received birthday party invite for ds1, but not ds2. I feel so hurt for ds2. The kid is 2 years younger than ds2, so nearly 4 years younger than ds1, yet only ds1 has been invited. This is not the first time (actually happened too many times) that ds1 invited and not ds2 and it really hurts his feelings so much. I understand the family/child should be able to invite who they want, but still feel hurt and angry. It's so fucking unfair. It breaks his little heart. But then do I still let ds1 go - unfair to deny him his party? Do I decline & tell the family why? Uptil now we've alwys let ds1 go and me or dh has staken ds2 out for a treat. But it still hurts him a lot not to have been invited?

ernest, my two get separate party invites all the time (and they are only 15 months apart in age!). It's going to happen that ds1 has his own parties and ds2 has his.

Also re playdates - if I invite ds's friends around when dd is here then normally, ds's friends (and ds) will naturally play with dd who is older and a girl so therefore assumes the role of organising them! If I have ds's friends around when only ds is here, then they will play together. I do a bit of both but if I felt ds was having difficulty making friends, I would definitely invest some time into trying to ensure they had separate social lives.

problem is, kids in ds2 class invite ds1, kids in ds1 class invite ds1. ds2 not invited by his own cohort, yet ds1 always invited. So they're not getting their own invites, ds1 invited every time, ds2 ignored every time. If ds1 was invited by his own class and ds2 not invited by his that would be easier, but when ds1 invited by ds2 class it really sends a strong and very negative and hurtful message.

you need to get him to spend one on one time on his own (without his brother being there) with children in his class - having his brother there probably gives him a false sense of security - he doesn't need to do the proper social stuff because he's got someone else there doing it for him! These children need to get to know him for who he is (the lovely child you describe) rather than what he is doing now which is acting up to get the attention.

Is there anyway you can ask family if they can both go??? I have to say I'm with you Ernest - I feel that if the invite has come from someone that knows both you DC then both should be invited, and for the record, I think you sound like a fab and caring mum who just wants whats best for both her boys
by the way I sucked my thumb for years and only stopped when I was put in braces, so I understand why you want DS to stop - try giving him an incentive for stopping and remind him how clever he is each day he goes without doing it

If he's 5, can I guess that he's now in Year 1?

DO you think a lot of change at school could be making him anxious etc? The only reason I ask is because I remember a friend of mine having a problem with this sort of stuff about the same time in the school year, and at the same age.

The beginning of Year 1 is often quite stressful for kids we were told at DS's school - the way they teach the kids begins to change (more formal/ less play) and also I think the way boys change begins to manifest itself (I have a separate thread related to this somewhere). Some of the more sporty boys become the 'football' heroes, others the funny ones, others the 'quiet ones' etc. It may be that your DS is just trying to work out where he fits into it all. Some of the silliness certainly sounds like he thinks he is trying to be one of the 'funny ones' which I think kids often think will make them popular.

FWIW my 4 year old does a lot of clothes chewing and is currently going through a 'rude words' phase - I do think it's normal.

I was given some very good advice on the other thread about focussing on everything that is good about your child, and reinforcing it with him, and then gently, but regularly (without too much fuss) reminding and rewarding for the(removal of) bad behaviours...

HTH

xx

thanks a lot all of you. Boys don't yet know about party and still undecided how to handle it. I am re-starting the pasta jar, and hoping that will help with the thumb. He is def. trying, bless him

esp thanks to jam77, any nice words feel great right now. feel like such a crap mum sometimes, but trying my best. Iwas a 2nd child with bigger, older sister, so feel esp strongly for ds2. being no. 2 with small gap is not easy.

ernest, if I were in your position with the parties I think I would have a rule; if DS1 gets an invitation from a classmate of DS2, and DS2 is left out, then I would contact the parent and decline the invitation, and be honest! "DS2 would be so upset at DS1 going to a classmates party without him, so I have to say no this time". most reasonable people would see the reasoning behind this and tbh I am really taken aback with parents of classmates who don't invite your ds if they are inviting your DS1!!

But I wouldn't get that bent out of shape over it either; party invites often matter less to kids than we think they do.

Just don't let it be an issue; refuse if it's obviously excluding DS2...and also I think actually it's a lovely chance for DS2 to have a nice time with his parents if DS1 is at a party, it sounds really nice what you do, taking him out for a treat etc....

Can you invitee some of his classmates round for tea, one at a time. It might help build his confidence/social skills and get him more friendly with them.

I do think they go through strange phases. My 5yo dd likes sticking her bum in classmates' faces and trumping! Needless to say they're not very impressed.

lol. sounds like a match made in heaven binkamum. maybe we should arrange a date?

oops, binkacat

Yeah they would be happy trumping at each other while saying rude words like "bum" and giggling