So basically I should never be angry at my 2.5yr ds?

[321ashers]

I am struggling with the tantrums, the lying, the snatching from other children, the pushing other children when they snatch from him, the disobedience to myself and my dh. All I ever read is not to get angry at toddler and tell them off because they are not trying to be naughty. I never shout, I am always fair and consistent, I try to reason with him and listen and to solve the thing that may be troubling him. But ds continues to push and challenge. How do I keep the control and also be a kind and considerate parent?!

Btw I once had a nanny who was terrible at her job. She withdrew affection and attention from my preschooler 4 year old, on the grounds that until 'he showed her respect' he didn't 'deserve' her attention or kindness! To a child she'd met a couple of days ago. Bonkers woman who oh surprise, turned out to lie on her cv about her childcare experience... Grrrr.

In practice this meant: she gives ds her iPhone to watch peppa pig on. He accidentally touched the screen and it opened an advert Instead. Nanny had walked off and left him alone as he hadn't said thank you. He had no idea about any of that. He calls her. She refuses to answer as he's 'not being respectful' to her spake ignores him. He calls louder and louder, he doesn't 'deserve' an answer and as he gets more and more frustrated, she decides he's being more and more disrespectful and rude. Then she complains to me that he's having a tantrum, & I need to Make him apologise before she'll deign to be nice to him and speak to him again. She hadn't realised of been watching and she had not a clue that she had engineered that situation herself and she was being very unpleasant to a child who had no idea why she was being so randomly unkind. Honestly it was like dealing with two preschoolers, arghhh! The agency woman I complained to said she was amazed the phone remained intact and not thrown or dropped in anger, or tears. Never leave your technology with a child, especially if you're then going to wind them up deliberately!

Anyway, the moral of that story is that it's possible to embue adult emotions on childish actions, and it never ends well! However, you're a parent rather than someone professing to have years of childcare experience, and I suspect you would t react as bizarrely as her, so you don't get my ire!

Another tip from the SN meltdown brigade - worrying about what people are thinking is not going to keep you calm or help you think rationally. All you can do is your best to help your child and sometimes that's noisy and embarrassing and people (esp older people) will be unkind and unhelpful.

Oh wow Miscellaneous! That's an incredible story. Blimey. I'm certainly not as expectant as her, she sounds dreadful! but I think maybe I am still expecting too much. I will give all this a lot of thought. Thanks to all PPs.

Thanks sliceofsoup. He is my first but I also have 6 month old. I've found your comments particularly helpful and I am starting to see that I may be being a tad irrational and unrealistic in my expectations. And yes silkstalkings I do worry how other mums are judging my parenting skills and it isn't helpful. I presume their kids are so much better than mine and they have it all under control.

Thing is, so what if their kids ARE better than yours in some ways? Doesn't mean it's your fault or that they are better parents. Having had 2 autistic toddlers, I've learned this the hard and sharp way in order to survive and be strong enough to help my kids in the non-traditional way they need. It really is nobody else's business and your best is absolutely good enough for YOUR child - nobody else could do it better.
(Not being shouty, just pep-talky)

OK, if you've got a 6 month old I'm guessing you are pretty sleep deprived and also expecting a lot from your DS because he's now a big brother (been there, done that) even if it is unconscious.

He's 2.5, he's only just mastering language, he's got no impulse control and no understanding that his behaviour has an impact on other people - beyond 'if i do this I get attention'. So give desired behaviour lots of praise and ignore unwanted behaviour, with the exception of violence which we have always dealt with by saying 'we don't hit/bite/scratch/kick' and then removing from the situation, putting somewhere safe then giving the injured party attention.

FWIW I think 2 year olds are capable of lying, they are playing with language though rather than being 'evil'. DS (2.5) is very capable of teasing me or DH which is just a form of lying, although a more socially acceptable one.

Perfectly behaved toddlers are an illusion caused by either a laid back child or an overly controlling parent.

I try not to think of good and bad behaviour but rather helpful/desirable and unhelpful/ undesirable behaviour so my job is to help my toddler to understand the difference. The challenge is that it takes them fecking ages to grasp it and it is an object lesson in patience and consistency.

Also try to validate feelings even if the accompanying behaviour is undesirable.

I am glad I could help OP. And wow. You have a lot on your plate with a 6 month old. That age gap is rough, I have nearly 4 years between mine and I was so glad of it in the early months.

Its really easy to forget that the "big" one is still only tiny. My 6 yo has the gift of the gab and has us all forgetting shes only 6. Seriously. People who meet her for the first time cannot believe she isn't 8 or 9. I have to remind myself that she isn't older all the time and realise I am expecting too much.

And well behaved toddlers do happen, my eldest was one. (Absolute luck, nothing to do with me at all.) But let me tell you, she is making up for it now. :o So anyone who judges your parenting will get their fair share at some point. And we all have the dreaded teenage years to get through.

We also need to model respect with our children and teach them how to interact nicely. We can practice sharing, taking turns, showing even a toddler how to stay calm and give something when asked, and a perent can say please and thank you.

Every day we have dozens of opportunities to practice calm interactions with our child- done with love, a calm voice, a smile, a kiss, a squeeze of the hand, a thanks when the child is getting it right.
When a child figues out that such co-perative interactions are pleasant he will learn to use this as a way of life.

sliceofsoup- the teenage years can be a piece of cake if kids learn respectful behaviour when they are young.

I agree entirely bigbluestars.

I had a horrendous time as a teenager as my mother took everything personally among other things. Our relationship is still strained. I do forget sometimes that it is possible for a teenager to be happy and nice. The way I want to parent is a conscious opposite of her. It can be quite tiring and for a long time I would fall into her patterns and have to drag myself back out of them.

My 2.3 yo says thank you all the time. It shocked me at first because it was never specifically taught, but then I realised that we all say thank you to her and each other so of course she would copy that behaviour. It was a bit of a lightbulb moment lol.

Telling a child off and getting angry with a child are not the same thing. If my child snatches, pushes and lies tell them off. If a child is not listening use a stern voice, get down to their level, make eye contact, remove them from the situation, never give in and teach why it was wrong when everything's calm.

sliceofsoup- that's interesting, and fantastic you were able to recognise and take such a positive approach when you became a parent.

I think it can make such a difference- in the short and long term. I have a 17 yo and a 14 yo and these teenage years are brilliant. I honestly can't remember the last time there awas a cross word in my house. My teenagers behave with dignity and respect- they are fun loving, popular and work hard.

They also thank me for making them a meal, give me a hug for doing their laundry, make me cups of tea and meals without being asked.

What you say about your 2.3 yo is so true, and I do think it comes down to modelling respect. We can't make a child respect us, we have to earn that respect.
And that means treating a child with dignity. I don't suggest a child gets to rule the roost or being overly liberal, but when we do have interactions we need to behave like an adult. And that means not losing our temper.

Children can see us frustrated, upset, annoyed, but we need to demonstrate to a child how to cope with anger too. It's not something that comes easily to many children, so we have to guide the way.

Gosh, you all sound so knowledgeable with all this stuff. I have literally no clue. Nobody has ever told me anything about toddlers. I'm stumbling into this blind. I've never been around children or babies. My parents and in laws seem to have forgotten all about how their kids were as toddlers, they always seem surprised at how strong willed and unmamageable my ds is. I have been on a toddler calming course when he was a tiny baby. But I think I thought that if I follow that advice that I will crack it. Ie: get instant results. But some days he is so amazing and well behaved and listens to me and other days he is completely the opposite and I guess I feel that until he is good as gold all the time then I can't have succeeded. I'm starting to realise it is a constant "battle" and to continue the effort and not expect too much

321ashers- none of us are experts and like you I knew nothing about raising kids when mine were born, nor did I have any advice.
Luckily there are lots of books around- that's how I learned.

Read as many as you can, dive in, you may not agree with - I particularly hated the Toddler Taming books, I like a more nurturing approach-

www.askdrsears.com/topics/parenting/discipline-behavior/8-tools-toddler-discipline

None of us are experts, we've just come out of the other end of the toddler years and have the benefit of some reflection! I got it wrong so often with my DS when he was your age (and the undiagnosed ASD really didn't help either).

The main thing is to model what you want - bigblue is so right about that. DS is 9 now and we were talking about when he was angry at school and how it was hard to control it, and I said 'oh god DS I know, me too.' and you could literally see the lightbulb going on - we're all on a journey, none of us are perfect. We never go to bed angry, we start and end each day with a cuddle and then we take it from there.

Actually, accepting my own mistakes and shortcomings makes it easier to accept DS more challenging behaviour - we don't do perfect in our house!

Agree were not experts, we're just a little bit further down the road :)

Also noone will ever be the expert on your child, and your relationship, and your context...

One thing I found useful just as a general thing throughout childhood, is that I firmly believe it's my job to teach ds about emotions. So not to just squish the bad stuff and love the good stuff, but to help him deal with the powerful feelings he has that he has no idea about. Strange to think that feeling angry is just as new to him as what jelly feels like!

I read somewhere that toddlers often scare themselves with the strength of their emotions, as they haven't got a clue what they actually are or how to handle that feeling - or even if they'll ever stop feeling like that when in the middle of a doozy of a tantrum.

I was really struck by that thought and it helped me see myself as the guide to help him through the tantrum, & the tantrum as a force of nature... Not as something that was my fault or his fault, it's inevitable and it's our job to get through it in the most pleasant way possible for both of us. And building the groundwork to make tantrums gradually a bit less likely to happen.

So damage limitation, and calmness, space if my presence was making it worse, and soft reassuring words if he utterly lost it.

That's after the firm no, lifting away, distracting etc. when it's all gone tits up and all reason had left the building.

I think accepting the bad behaviour as just somethkng every kid goes through might help you feel better about it. Think of it not as mortifying proof of your child's awfulness and your failure... But as a natural phenomenon like storms in autumn, or rain in spring. Just a stage of development. You are not in control of storms and rain clouds, you can't stop them so you don't feel responsible if it rains, but what you can do is be prepared to deal with it when it happens - wear a rain coat, bring an umbrella, don't try and have a picnic with storm clouds overhead... That kind of thing, sorry got lost in my metaphor, hope it makes sense :)

Then when he was a bit older I'd make sure I named the emotion he was feeling and sympathized over how rotten it is when we feel like that. And when calm coming up with strategies to deal with feeling angry/ frustrated/ etc.

So now we have 3 things he can choose to do when he's really angry, and I tell him firmly to stop doing x, and give him the choice of what to do, and it works ok at the moment! It's punch a pillow, do angry jumping, or have a lie down by himself in his room.

It was striking how much it helps just to say 'it's ok to feel angry, everyone feels angry' (but it's Not ok to hit out or whatever). So not in any way excusing the behaviour, but recognizing he needed to be shown how to deal with it so gradually hitting (or whatever) wouldn't be the first impulse.

Don't know if that was in Any Way helpful, but for my ds, and me, it really helped take the angst out of slot of situations. Helped me put myself in the role of 'native guide' vs combatant!

Also it's important to apologise to them after you've lost your own temper. It may be perfectly natural but your loss of control still made the people around you feel uncomfortable or scared. You'd apologise to grown ups after all. Also gives them an opportunity to reflect or even start a conversation about it.

I agree, I am certainly no expert. I get it wrong on a daily basis. I have learnt things from this thread too. My 6yo is now an older child with emerging interests and different ways of seeing things. I had just got to grips with having a preschooler and now I feel like I am starting all over again to learn how to parent a child in primary school. I am sure I will feel the same when shes approaching preteens. Its a constant learning experience.

Miscellaneous I love that post.

A 2.5 yr old may not be capable of controlling their emotions or delayed gratification or showing respect...but they can be capable of demonstrating empathy when encouraged.

Focus on the big stuff - hitting/pushing other children, snatching their toys away etc. Behaviour that impacts other people or their children basically. It can be tempting to take the view that toddlers will be toddlers but no parent is helping anyone, least of all their own child, by not trying to reinforce the message that hurting others is wrong. Not everything is negotiable.

From age 2 we've implemented stern voice (not shouting), explaining why behaviour wasn't nice, other child is upset/hurt etc. As others have said, moving your child away from play area/other children and making eye contact at their level helps. For repeated/worst behaviour we use 'thinking time' (time alone in room to think about how the other person feels etc).
In fact that's advice I had on MN when I posted in despair at the time.

Also lots of reward/praise for positive behaviour (works well for toilet training, not having tantrums in the car seat/pram, waiting their turn etc).

Dd (2.7) has for some time demonstrated sympathy if she sees other children upset at nursery, helps if they fall down etc. She's aware that hitting etc hurts and is aware that being hurt isn't nice. This awareness has really helped.

Above approach (reinforced by nursery who include empathy in their Early Years assessment) has worked well.....so far. I'm well aware the terrible threes are fast approaching and it might go horribly wrong.

Thanks again everyone! Some really lovely posts going on here! This has been so helpful, and quite cathartic. Randomly I had a lovely day with my ds today. He was good as gold and considerate of others (he opened gate for a mum struggling with pram) I was so proud! I get what you are all saying. You know you own child better than anyone else can. I like what you said about tantrums Miscellaneous. I will definitely try to take them less personally. And see it as my job to Navigate him through these strong emotions.

Good luck, OP. I, like you hadn't clue about children until I had one. There was no internet in those days so I read every child operating manual I could lay my hands on.

But I suppose the main thing that worked for me was to not keep on doing the same thing if it didn't get results. For example, in those days it was permitted and normal to smack, but if smacking didn't work, the solution was not to smack more and harder but to find another way.

www.ahaparenting.com/_blog/Parenting_Blog/post/How_To_Transform_Your_Time-Outs_To_Time-Ins
This ia fantastic post by a child psychologist and evidence based as well, I really hope you get a chance to read it as you'll probably breathe a sigh of relief and have a few new ways of dealing with your 2.5 year old