What sort of experimentation is acceptable behaviour for five year olds?

[Flip]

I took ds1 to a kids playzone today and one of my friends took her son and a boy she was looking after while his mum was working. All of the boys are five and are in the same class at school although at school my ds1 doesn't play with them because he says there games are stupid.

My friend and I went off to do a bit of shopping and we left dh looking after the three boys. When we got back dh said he had something to tell us. He'd seen the boys looking a little suspicious in the ball pool and had gone over. My ds1 and the other boy were looking down my friends sons pants. Dh frowned at them and told my friends son to put his meat and two vedge away and go play.

I was a little disturbed and so was my friend and we decided to ask the boys about it seperatley. When we left the playzone we went to burger king for something to eat and I took the opportunity whilst in the car with just ds1 to ask him about it.

At first he said it was a secret. Then he said they were playing a game. After reasurrance that he wouldn't be in trouble and that he shouldn't keep secrets he told me what the game was and I feel a bit strange now.

The game was to put their hand down the front of each others pants all the way round to the back and touch their bottom. Whoever got furthest won. The game was instigated by the other boy. After pushing ds1 more he said that they'd played another game to where they had to pull down their pants and shake their bottom and their willies at each other. He said that this game was also the other boys idea.

My friend had already told me that she thought the other boy was a little bit different because of how touchy he was with her son. I've told her she should tell the other boys mum but she's not to sure. I think I'd want to know if ds1 was instigating games like that because I'd want to know where he'd got those idea's from.

Am I wrong in thinking that five year old'd don't do things unless they're copying someone else. Or am I just over reacting and reading to much into a harmless act?

I need help on this. I'm a little worried about this other boy and where he's got this idea from.

I know children do play lots of exploratory games. I remember playing with a boys willy when we were about 6ish, it was just curiosity to me though looking back it was his idea. When I was a bit older, maybe 8, I played 'games' with a girl friend when we had sleep-overs. Again I put it down to curiosity. I guess it is what children do. 5 years old sounds a bit early compared to my experiences but it doesnt ring any alarm bells with me. I am interested in what other posters say on the matter though.

Penultimate point ' think so, Flip, but I haven't got boys. Sure comfort and reassurance will come thro' M'net sooon

Flip ... I understand your worries but I hate to say that I think it is normal.
At least I hope it is normal ... we have had very similar behaviour from DS (4.5) recently and some of his friends.
We have had a big chat with DS about keeping his body private. That no one needs to touch or see his bottom or his willy, that they belong to him and are private. I think that is an important thing to say to young children to protect them ...
I think the best way is to say something like that but then not go on too much about it ... it will only make them more curious ... IYSWIM?

Eerrrrm, yes. This is definitely not acceptable behaviour, neither in public nor in private.

Having said that, I probably wouldn't worry about it overly. BUT I would remind my child that bottoms are private, ie. (a) they shouldn't be pulling their pants down in public, and (b) they shouldn't be touching anyone's bottom or willy, or letting anyone else touch theirs.

I would probably discourage my child from seeing that particular child, and if necessary explain very neutrally that I didn't like the kind of games that had been played.

If other children are at our house and I sense that kind of silliness in the air (usually preceded by dressing-up games, IME) I remind everybody that whatever game they play, nobody needs to remove their pants. That usually results in hysterical giggles, but they get the message.

Better to be upfront but very emotionally neutral about it, in my experience.

I have had that chat with ds1 Ghosty. He went through a phase of keep touching my private bits and dh was getting upset so I addressed it with him. I told him that ladies and girls bits were private and that he shouldn't touch them. I then asked him if he'd think it was right if I touched his bits and he said no. So I know he knows not to let anyone touch him. It's just that this child has set my mind thinking. What if someone has played that game with him? An adult maybe. Am I paranoid?

It shouldn't have needed to be a secret if they didn't think there was anything wrong.

Personally I wouldn't worry about abuse, assuming you haven't noticed any other worrying signs. Kids that age are obsessed with bums, willies and boobies, and if he sees that you have worries around these issues that will just reinforce his interest, and make him think there's something weird about it all.

There's a boy in my ds's class who has a reputation as a fiddler. Just don't ask a child like that to parties or to tea and make it clear to your son that you find that behaviour unacceptable.

The more neutral you can be about it the quicker they'll lose interest. My ds (4.5) was fascinated when I first started breastfeeding dd2 (4 months), but the novelty wore off pretty quickly.

I definately think this boys mother should be told, just so she is aware of what's happening. I would like to be told in this situation!

Lots of good advice, but do mention it the the boy's mother, she may have two to put together with two and you would be forever upset if it turned out this boy had been influenced by an abusive adult and you didn't mention it.
Best keep some distance from this boy for a while until the game is forgotten.
Your ds will move on to other things and I think that now you have discussed it so thoroughly with him and gained his confidence and told him he won't get in trouble then that's the issue overwith as far as your family is concerned.
I'm taking notes from you posters on this thread on how you tell your sons about keeping their willies to themselves and private with out instilling Victorian repressiveness. DS1 was lying on his bed having a lovely strum earlier this evening, bless him, but I am now aware that the time is approaching to give him guidlines about his body and privacy.

I remember when I was 5 I used to sleep at my friend's house a lot while my mum was doing night duties. She had a younger brother and we all used to share a room. We used to play a gmae where you had to go through the alphabet (so maybe we were slightly older?) and say the name of an animal beginning with each letter- if you couldn't think of one you had to show the others your bits. I remember once her brother got an errection (!!!) and we were all very fascinated.

All VERY innocent. I think this sort of thing is quite common. I know my friend's dd twins used to be fascinated with ds1's willy at nappy changes.

What I'm saying is I don't think it has to mean anything. Mention it to the mother- but maybe do it in a jokey sense- she will know if it is likely to signal a problem or not. I think if they were 8+ I'd be more concerned, but at their age- very normal.

hi flip.... i think in another circumstance i would put it down to just kids being kids. private parts are soooo intriging to little kids, esp those of the opposite sex cos they're different. also kids seem to like to touch their bits or wave them around!!
the fact that the word secret was used and the way u had to pry it out of ur son is a worry.

it could just be nothing. but alarm bells do ring. i would ask your friend to tell ds friends mother just incase an adult has had these secrets with him. maybe it wouldnt be a good idea for your friend say this to the mother as she may take it that she thinks she would endanger her son. but just let her know the game and the fact that it was a secret. maybe she could ask her if she's noticed any games like this so it sounds conversational rather than acusational

did you find out wat her ds had to say about the matter?
ask ds why it is a secret, try not to let him sense ur worried or he may not tell u things in future.
I for one would like to be told if my son was playing any such secret games and deff if he had instigated it.

Gosh, well I disagree with everyone else - it sounds totally normal to me and just part of the experimentation they all go through. I don't think the 'secret' bit necessarily denotes abuse or anything, I think they just know it's something their parents might not approve of. I agree that we should be teaching them all that their bodies and bottoms etc are private and that it's not OK to have secrets but 5 yo boys messing about with their willies in a ball pool? I really wouldn't worry. I'd tell the mother but in a very low key unworried way and no way would I keep my son away from the child in question just because of this, I think that's an over reaction (unless I wanted to keep away from him for other reasons of course!) I think if there was any abuse it wouldn't necessarily be manifesting itself in this way (although I'm no expert, just imo)

I think it sounds fairly normal too, flip. I remember instigating a "No Clothes Club" with my brother and his best friend when I was about 7 and they were 5. It lasted about a week and then we moved on to some other mischief.

I would have a word with the other boy's Mum, but in a jokey "you would not believe what they were doing in the ball pit" type way. And just reinforce to your son that willies and bottoms are private and not for public entertainment. If there is no other weird behaviour from this other boy I think it unlikely that this is a "learned" behaviour, as a result of some form of abuse. He's probably just precociously imaginative like I was

I agree with you www (and marthmoo). Since writing my last message I have remembered that my cousin and I used to show each other our bits as well when we were about 5 or 6. I didn't have a brother and he didn't have a sister so we were just quite curious I think.

Maybe its growing up in the country?

Nah, I gew up in Manchester - I think it's fairly universal

Or even grew.

lol marthamoo I remember being quite shocked at what Laurie Lee got up to in Cider with Rosie.

Thank you for the advise - I think I will mention it to the mum in question on Monday at school. But I'll try and handle it carefully.

I do still have some concerns because the boy is so touchy with my friends son. He even has a pet name for him. My son has played those sorts of games before when he was much younger with another friends dd. But he knew the game was inappropriate because he told me it was a silly game and I think he felt uncomfortable. Ds1 is quite bright, hence the reason I have so many problems with his behaviour and choice of language. He told me that the boy was weird but I didn't voice my concerns with him.

I think that ds1 will make his own mind up and not play with this boy at school. He prefers much more distructive games that involve lots of shooting.