terrified I am emotionally damaging DD with sleep training tactics, can anyone reassure?

[Emeraldgirl2]

I will probably sound neurotic as hell which I am, a bit but having had a very cold and un-demonstrative mum myself I am adamant DD will not have the same experience. I've found myself to be much more of an 'attachment' parent than I ever thought I was capable of and my approach in all things DD-related is very softly-softly, letting myself be guided by her needs. That's just what works for me.

She was a diabolical sleeper until 13m when I (very successfully) did a gradual retreat form of sleep training, never left her to cry (in fact it was so gradual she barely cried even once!) and she is now 20, sttn reliably every single night and able to self-settle at bedtime (I put her into her cot, leave the room and she happily and quietly goes to sleep about 15 min later).

BUT we have been having a terrible early waking problem for months (5am) and it is having a bad effect on me, on DH (I am exhausted and get grumpy with him) but most of all on DD who is painfully tired a lot of the time, she is one of those children who doesn't 'make up' her sleep, she just gets more and more tired and sleeps less and less well and deeply)

I have spent months getting her into bed with me at 5am but she doesn't go back to sleep, she is too excited by having the cuddle, she fights sleep (despite yawning and crying with tiredness) until we give up and get up at 6.30ish and then she is falling asleep in breakfast an hour later.

In desperation I am now refusing to get her into bed with me at 5am and have spent the last few nights instead going into her room at 5am when she wakes, lying down on the floor, telling her 'it's still night time, night night' and feigning sleep.

So far this has also not got her back to sleep and she has SCREAMED about it. Pointing at the door, saying (in her 20m way) 'out, out' as in she wants to get out of the cot, and 'bed bed' as in she wants to get into bed with me.

My tactic is just to keep repeating gently that it's still sleep time; if she gets VERY upset I go and give her a quick cuddle in the cot and tell her I'm here and that everything is OK. But she has still screamed (intermittently) and I am losing confidence. How do I know she doesn't feel horribly abandoned by me?? That is the last thing I would ever want her to feel, having had a very detached mother myself. Yes I am staying in the room and making sure she knows I will stay until she is asleep and that everything is ok, it is just not time to get up yet. But I am worrying and worrying that I should just give in and accept the hideous early mornings, despite her chronic tiredness, because I don't want to solve the problem (if indeed it even works, eventually) at the expense of her trust in me.

Sorry for the long and rambling post but if anyone could give any advice that would be so welcome! I read a thread on MN the other day about people remembering being left in their cots to cry as small children (admittedly CIO techniques and not what I've been doing) but it has triggered this worry in me that i am doing untold damage to DD.

The logical part of me thinks that she is screaming through annoyance and frustration at not getting what she wants (to come into bed with me) and that actually, as long as I am there with her telling her it's all OK, there's nothing so very terrible about letting a toddler experience frustration, we can't all have everything we want in life when it's not actually helping us.

But the less logical part of me thinks she is confused and thinks I've abandoned her.

Have you thought about putting her into a proper bed? My LO went through a phase of this at about the same age (only he was waking at 4am!) We thought he could have been too hot/disturbed by the birdsong etc but it turned out he just like Mummy and Daddy's bed and the problem solved itself literally overnight once he was out of his cot.

And you're definitely not scarring her. She knows you're there and you are clearly a loving and attentive parent. She sounds to me like she's frustrated and angry and you are acknowledging this and not abandoning her so don't worry. Press on and she'll be over it before you know it!

Abra1d, I think I'm feeling a bit haunted by the thread I read the other day, basically MNers saying how they remembered being alone in the dark, desperate for a cuddle or for someone to come, and I am letting that get to me even though obv I am not leaving the room.

Oh nannynim, more good advice! She is a bit obsessed by beds actually, loves nothing more than playing the game she calls 'bed' on our bed which basically means rolling around cackling like a wild thing, in danger of whacking her head on the bedside tables...

Jojo maman bebe do a sleep jumpsuit for wriggly kids that can't bear sleeping bags. A friend highly recommended it. Could help with the cold issue? Ime at that age they just think 5am is wake up time and they grow out of it. I never started our day before 6am, no matter how much bored crying I had to endure....

My youngest wore a jumper to bed until I discovered these things for holding the duvet on BedBands

Even now, most night time trouble is dealt with by DH. Partly because he goes back to sleep easier than me. Partly because when tiny the DC preferred me so DH going in was less of a treat. Partly because he didn't agonise about DC hating him forever if they cried for a few minutes .

I suspect you lying on the floor is sending a confusing message. If it were 1am you wouldn't stick around would you? You've made 05:30 special and different, instead of being normal night time. Have you considered one of those colour change clocks? A 20month old could understand the difference between the morning colour and the night time colour. My friend had great success with one of those clocks and her DS2.

Emerald, I know what you mean, but I don't ever remember being left uncomforted by my parents, even though I know they (gently) sleep-trained me. Ever.

I don't have any useful advice for you but just wanted to say that I started the thread you mention and I am sorry it freaked you out. That was not my intention! For what it's worth my DM used very extreme techniques (CIO from day one, locking me in the dark, etc) which I do think had an effect one me BUT that doesn't mean that all efforts to get a baby/child to sleep will have the same effect. Fundamentally I think my DM lacked in empathy which affected all aspects of your parenting style and you don't sound anything like her. I hope you find a solution to your DD's sleeping problems.

Could you move her furniture around, or move her to another room? Start a new sleep routine at the same time, so that hopefully she will associate different placement of her bed with a new routine.

It actually sounds as though you are overthinking things, trying so hard to be the opposite to your parents, that you are overcompensating.

I see my job as a parent to love and nurture. But also to set routines which work in regard to sleep, food, personal hygiene etc. don't be afraid of trying new routines.

It takes so much out of you, being constantly deprived of sleep.

Is her room dark enough? Maybe having 2 naps a day, so that she could stretch her bedtime to 7 rather than 6?

Ds2 wasn't the best sleeper. I ended up doing cc with him. But he still woke in the night, virtually every night until he was 5, when we went through ground rules of only allowed to wake me for emergencies, illness or nightmares!

Oh, booboos, don't apologise at all! It was a really terrific thread actually, I am just neurotic highly sensitised to all matters sleep related at the mo and like you I have a very un empathetic mother so I get a bit obsessive about doing the opposite to what she would have done...

Oh, all this advice is amazing and exactly what I love MN for, I will check out both those sleep suit/blanket holders NOW, thank you!

Ah yes, very depressing if you think about it but my parenting style is also 'do the opposite of what DM did and you can't go wrong'. Best of luck for a long lie in!

Have you considered a Gro Clock? Once she understands how it works, you can extend the time before 'the sun comes up' by a few minutes each day and it might help her to sleep longer or at the very least stay in bed peacefully waiting for the sun to come up!

I second the Jojomanbebe sleep suit, I've got a wriggler and these are great, still trying to work out the clothing underneath though. Also mothercare do 2.5 tog sleep suits, about half the price of the jojo ones.

Oooh thank you bayrans... Do you put a vest and pyjamas underneath or treat the sleep suit like pyjamas and just put a vest under...?

Accidentprone, thank you, I am overcompensating for sure!!! I agree totally that parenting means routines as well as 'just' love, cuddles etc, its hard for me to get the balance right as my own childhood was aaaaaaaaalll about doing things 'right' and 'properly' (according to my mums rules) with no room for fun or closeness.

Groclock is another option, will look into it thank you!!

Have you thought of a small oil filled radiator in her room? You don't need to heat the whole house, and they have thermostats on them.

Her own cot bed might be a nice sleep thing to do? Give her ownership and possession over her own sleep space?

Sorry - I haven't read all the replies! But just wanted to say, my DD has always had sleep difficulties, one way or another, with bedtime being really tricky. Like you, I would never let her cry etc.

We used to sit in with her til she fell asleep at bedtime, but around 21mo she just stopped falling asleep with us there - think we would distract her. But as soon as we left she would scream blue murder! We tried all sorts of things, but eventually, and very reluctantly, just walked out and let her cry. It was awful - she cried for half an hour before falling asleep and I was wracked with guilt and felt awful. But on the 3rd night she just settled herself happily to sleep and since then has been 100% happier in her cot and at bedtimes generally.

I think it's a completely different thing doing sleep training with a 20mo to doing it with a younger baby. They have far more understanding and you can explain where you're going and why when you leave. DD actually started saying to me "Mummy do the washing up now", because that's where I said I was going, so she clearly understood. They can also be manipulative/dramatic at that age in the way a baby can't. I'm sure you can think of times when your DD is crying as if the world has ended, when actually all you've done is given her her drink in the wrong colour cup or whatever! At 20mo that terrible "distressed" crying can just as easily be "angry that I'm not getting my own way" crying, which of course is not the case when you're talking about a younger baby.

All of this said, of course I would rather not have to leave DD to cry ever, and I still find it stressful if I do. But just wanted to say that it is different at this age and if you're doing it within the context of a loving and emotionally rich parental relationship, then I'm sure your DD won't hold it against you!

Its2.5tog and her room is generally 20 degrees, I use a mix of pyjama top and bottoms and socks or a cotton footed sleep suit, if it does get a little colder out I'll probably use a vest too.
The jojo suit does have detachable arms and bootees which I've not used.

We had this exact same problem. Second the groclock and socks in bed suggestions.
Definitely try them before waking yourself and her up at half four in the morning!

Its2.5tog and her room is generally 20 degrees, I use a mix of pyjama top and bottoms and socks or a cotton footed sleep suit, if it does get a little colder out I'll probably use a vest too.
The jojo suit does have detachable arms and bootees which I've not used.

With ds1 we put him in a toddler/junior bed. For bedding we used a single duvet wrapped around the bed ie turned the duvet round and tucked it under the mattress.

This was impossible to kick off (despite huge efforts on ds1's part)!

Hi, I am in a similar ish situation, desperately searching this topic in the current threads after having a terrible nights sleep ... Or probably 7 terrible nights sleeps! I have a 14 month old, i haven't done a bedtime routine with her up until a few weeks ago, we are not a routine family at all, I am on an agency so work when they want me to, can be any time from 7am to 10pm and my partner does long shift work in London with no set days off so often my daughter is at mums until late (especially if I get off work by 10pm & want to go in to see My mum and have a chat about my day over a cup of tea!) also until now I haven't felt the need as she has inevitably become tired and fallen asleep in the car on the way home or in my arms at home and woken up once a night where I would go in hand her the bottle, put some music on and she and I would go back to sleep ... But boy am I feeling the affects of my non routine now! So having introduced a bedtime routine or sleep queues (impossible for me to do it at a set time each night, but at least it's the same routine if not at the exact same time (I hope), she now knows what's coming and dreads it! And I do prefer softly softly approach too but when researching every specialist seems to say controlled cry or whatever you want to call it is the only way to teach your lil one to fall asleep by themselves so that is what I am trying and after only 2 nights I can't help but think it is damaging her association with her cot & even her bedroom which she has loved until now, in the morning when it was actually time to get up she used to play in her cot and talk to her teddies but now she just screams, she took only half an hour of crying last night to tire herself and fall asleep but woke up at 5am and cried fighting her tiredness for over an hour keeping us awake and tense! I just only hope it pays of in the end and I'm not left with a child with a dread of her cot and sleep which it feels like at the mo ?? and I agree the later she sleeps the earlier she wakes! Has anyone found an alternative if this did not work for them that worked?

I'm a bit hopeless with sleep training, so not sure I'll be much use!
DS1 I managed to get into a cot by 6m, feeding to sleep, using sleeping bags etc. - but when he was 20mo we emigrated to Australia and he ended up back in with me, because I couldn't leave him alone in the bedroom and he wouldn't go to sleep in the cot with me in the room.
Anyway. He stayed in with me until he was 4 and I got pg with Ds2 - by the time I was about 14w pg, I had such bad acid reflux and SPD etc. that I kicked him out to sleep with DH instead and I slept alone; and then last year we built him his own bedroom and he went in there with no problem at age 5, nearly 6. Worked for us!

So I suppose my point is, how would you feel about having her in with you all night? I found that both DS1 and now DS2 sleep much better and longer if I'm in there with them - they're more restless and wake more if I'm missing. This goes for DS2's naps as well - if he can be put in the bed, and I nap with him, he'll stay asleep faaaar longer than if he's on his own.

Of course this might not suit you or be practical - but I thought I'd offer it. :)

Bit late to the party here but just wanted to say you're not alone with the guilt. I honestly think it comes down to weighing up the lesser of two evils. We did some gentle sleep training at 12 months because DD would not be fed to sleep anymore and NOTHING else worked. I had always said no to any sleep training. We had literally tried everything. So we got her to settle in her cot with us next to her. It was horrid, I'll never forget the crying, but I'll also never forget how much happier we all were when she wasn't up most the night screaming. We're having to repeat it at the mo unfortunately! But what swung it for us was when DH said 'well we know for sure that none of us is happy at the mo, we are all ill with exhaustion and the two of us becoming seriously depressed over it. We also know there is what seems to be a very very very miniscule chance, only according to some small scale research, that it might harm her long term, but even then probably only if other factors are involved. It is a risk we will have to take.' However that's only if you do go along with the (in much people's opinion) patchy evidence. On the other hand, she went through a phase of early wakes and would scream for an hour or more before going back to sleep for half an hour. So I did accept them for a while (but when we moved to one nap they stopped).

It sounds like she's furious you aren't doing what she wants - typical tantrum behaviour. You really really aren't damaging her. Kids need boundaries as well as love and kindness and they definitely need to know that there is someone in charge! Tiredness is making her miserable and it is your job to find a solution for her benefit (as well as yours).

What time does she have her dinner and go to bed?

Hi emerald congrats on cracking the self settling, multiple feeds & co sleeping

Early wakings are a bloody killer aren't they? Especially with a 10 hr shift in front of you grrrr!

What has helped us recently is warmth too. Long sleeved sleepsuit, oil filled radiator with thermostat from argos (£40) keeps ds room at 20 deg. His room is always colder than ours despite brand new heating system. It clicks quietly when it comes on but ds has got used to it after a week. I'm sure it's contributed to cracking our 515 wakings along with cosy curtains.

FWIW at the height of my waking every 90 min co sleeping hell I asked my parents last year if I was a bad sleeper. The reply was 'no idea, your room was at the other end of the house and we didn't go back in til 8am' Coupled with the fact I was on my front under a mountain of blankets and a bobble hat it's a miracle I'm here

I can't remember it and still like them