Erm "challenging" behaviour in 9 yr old dd.

[hellymelly]

DD1 has been a tricky child at certain stages, mainly as she is a terrible worrier, particularly since being bullied in year 1. She is usually kind hearted and friendly, funny and very bright. Last term was grotty as the bullying issue reared up again (this is a different school from the 1st time) and she was miserable and stressed at being suddenly excluded from the girls group in class after she stuck up for a girl being picked on. This term has been much better, but in spite of being super-bright, she is worrying about the school work, making silly mistakes by rushing through things like maths that she finds easy (she was having extra maths last term, but they don't seem to be giving her any this year). She is totally disenchanted with school, sees no point in it and is angry and grumpy. All this isn't helped by her having a hormonal issue (premature adrenarche, adrenals kicking into a pubertal state a bit too early) which can cause mood swings. Basically she is sometimes her lovely funny quick witted chatty self, kind and thoughtful, but much of the time she is a rude, stroppy, door-slamming flouncing little madam. I have had enough of it, and we are imposing stricter sanctions , but it is really tricky, as other than stopping her going to her drama class, which is the only thing she loves (and yes I do see the irony) there isn't much she cares about. Stopping her time with friends is the other big thing, but as her friends out of school and her drama are the only two things making her happy I feel positively evil if I have to resort to this. She is beastly to DD2, who is 7 and happy at school for the first time, she is jealous of her not getting told off, but doesn't seem to see her own part in things "Its NOT FAIR" has been roared at me so many times today I am going loopy. I am getting shouty too which isn't helping, but a close friend has just died in tragic circumstances and I just don't have much tolerance at all right now. So wise parents of girls this age or older, how to handle this? She is 10 at Christmas. I know that the school thing is a huge part of it, but there isn't an obvious solution to that right now, as we live in a remote rural area, so no small selective inspiring preps etc.

Tbh I think many girls going through puberty are like this for a while. It may not be pleasant but it is normal and will pass.......eventually. Not helpful I know but I just tend to take a deep breath and let some of the bad bits just wash past, pick your battles, let the non dreadful bits just go.

It is the rudeness that is really getting to me, she is doing the full eye-rolling, door slamming, "you are an idiot" type of thing. I NEVER spoke to my mother like that, and certainly not at 9. No signs of proper puberty like breast buds etc, but she does sound like a 12/13 year old rather than a year 5 girl. Please don't tell me there will be six more years of this? I do try to pick my battles but the rudeness just makes the red mist descend...

Oh helly, I could have written your post, except for a few details. My 9 yr old dd is behaving EXACTLY as you describe, it is heartbreaking, not least because she is normally a lovely, kind and thoughtful girl.

I don't know what to do either, she deeply regrets her behaviour once she has calmed down and is tearful and apologetic but she goes on to do it again then next day.

I don't have to any physical evidence to suggest it is hormones with my dd but it does seem to me to be very similar those hormonal/pubescent outbursts that I had as a preeteen.

The worst thing is how she treats her siblings, which has come out of nowhere. She's gone from being a model daughter and sister to resenting them and getting easily irritated by them.

When she is particularly bad, we just remove privileges; TV, device, treats. We have chart (just a hand-cobbled sheet with columns and names), there isn't really a system but my kids hate having a cross, so it seems to work with the first warning (after a good week or so of lots of crosses).

I have made effort to sit and chat with her more about random stuff and school stuff, this seems to work a little, it gives her a chance to open up (we've always talked a lot but I've 'upped the ante' on this).

I'm so sorry to hear about your friend, I imagine it's very difficult to deal with everything. I'm sad and confused. I hope things improve for us both.

Have you noted the dates when she is having a bad day? You may see a pattern emerge as her hormones could be following a cycle just as they will when her periods start. For the record I do share your pain, I've got a 14 yo sd and my twins g+b are 9. Boys are fairly similar when they get hormonal but girls tongues can be vicious. It will pass

14 yo ds, not sure what ds stands for...sounds dodgy

Sd oh fgs you know what I mean

Hormones apart, I think, Y5 and Y6 are stressful, DCs aren't grown up enough for real freedom, but they are leaving toys and childish things behind.

Bright 9 year olds find school very frustrating if lessons aren't well differentiated. I behaved appallingly in Y5. Slamming my desk, refusing to do work I thought was pointless and being cheeky. (I was better at home because my DDad was loving, but strict and I wasn't fed up at home).

By10 DCs want more control over their lives than they can have or actually handle. Most don't go to a laid back village primary with a class of 40 as I did. So it's home not school who gets the brunt of the bad behaviour.

Sometimes their frustration comes out in clear toddler grade stroppyness, sometimes in teen attitude and sometimes just in low level grumpy moaning.

They focus their frustrations not on big things, they know they can't control those, but stupid little things they feel they can. Trouble is their choice of things to get totally annoyed about is, to everyone else, not always logical and very wearing.

The best response I found with DD2 was to ignore what could be ignored and send her to her room when it simply couldn't be.

Then to give her the opportunity to feel grown up. Oh and lots of hugs.

Independence and being able to do things with their friends and a say in family days out etc.

With DD2 really little things like KFC rather than Macdonalds. A hour in town with a friend on their own or going swimming, helped.

As does being allowed to stay home while I taxi her sister about or getting to bake.

Hang in there OP it does get better, at 11, DD2 apologised for one particularly ridiculous tantrum and she's got to 13 without throwing another.

Yes she grumps a bit, she is a control freak by nature, being in control makes her feel safe and loved, but she's much much better.

I don't have vast experience but some similarities with my 8yo ds1.

• He behaves worse when he is unhappy (obvious) and feeling unloved and almost tries to push me away - perhaps to see if I will love him, faults and all. I don't know. It is so hard, because the more challenging he is, the harder it is to enjoy him and he senses that and responds negatively. Sometimes I need to give myself a talking to or watch dvd's of when he was young and sweet. It helps me to reconnect with who he really is and to treat him with more love. And also to know I was similar throughout my teens, desperate for my mum's love but pushing her away and pushing her buttons. Sadly, it worked to some extent for me, and there was a lot of distance in our relationship. I know she never stopped loving me, but she withdrew at a time when I really needed her to engage with me.

• Secondly, he is very very hard on himself. This results in constant blame on other people. If he spills a drink it is because his Dad put it to near his hand. Yesterday he tripped onto a baby buggy and he said ds2 pushed him, but he actually just tripped over a chair, but was so upset with himself that he couldn't say that. It drives me bananas, but I know he is really being overly hard on himself because his self esteem is so low.

I would find some rare times when she is not misbehaving too much and just have a great cuddle and loads of encouraging words. I also always tell them that whatever they do, I will always love them, it doesn't change it. I don't always like the behaviour, but I always love them.

DD2 used to get into that kind of negative button pushing, being hard to like cycle with DH.

She loves her dad to bits and I have had to remind them both to share hugs and Garfield books not scowls, grumps and DH going to his study.

They are actually very alike, sometimes it's not a good thing.

O really really helpful posts! Thank you so much everyone. I feel teary reading them. I am off to bed with lots to think about and will read again in the morning. Very interesting comments and helpful strategies.

As I say I'm not totally convinced behaviour is so much hormones as growing up, but one thing I'm certain is.

A bit in Y6 and two or three times I'm Y7 both my DDs had days off school for feeling really horrible and being pale and quite clearly ill. Next day they were fine, despite looking like they were going down with something the day before.

I very strongly suspect that it was linked to pre period hormones, neither does it now. DD1 gets period pains and worse ovulation pains and DD2 seems totally unbothered, but the odd looking like you have a nasty virus days have gone.

Reading the posts again today has been helpful, and I was able to stay calm and kind by remembering her incredibly sweet 4 year old self, rather than getting shouty as I normally do at the moment. She is very trying though. Today she has been stropping about school tomorrow, insisting she won't go. We had this last Monday. And threatening to be so naughty in school that she will be expelled. She is really fed up with not having one good friend in school. (Well she has one, but he is a boy, and the other boys tease him if he plays with her). Strangely, none of the other girls has a best sort of friend either, their teacher commented on it too, they are not very compatible as a bunch of girls (7 or 8 of them, I forget which). She has been bored by the work for ages, and is losing interest in things like maths which she usually enjoys as she is good at it. She plays with a few of the girls but they don't get on very well and DD has become more and more argumentative which doesn't help. She is a different child in her drama class, mature and happy, gets on with virtually all of them (they go up to age 16 so there is a nice mix, she is one of the youngest). In some ways she seems really ready for big school, aside from things like homework, which is another battleground. She seems pretty unhappy actually, and I am not sure how to make things any better for her. The total disengagement with learning is really worrying me.
Elephephants, it was helpful to read of your desk slamming frustration in year 5. What helped?
I am going to start keeping diary notes to see if there is a cyclical element to the stroppyness. We see the consultant about her adrenal issue in a month's time so I can chat to him too about hormonal aspects.
As a pp said the way she is so nasty to her little sister is very hard to take, she seems horribly jealous of her at the moment.

Two things help.
The Y6 teacher streaming us onto three big ability tables and then arranging the seating with those according to ability.

On a good day he threw harder work at our table and me and the now maths teacher worked out how to do it and showed the others.

What helped most was going to secondary school and having proper set science and maths.

At home, DDad allowing me to cycle off our little estate and go into town, the park and by Y7 3 miles to a DFs and out into the wilds beyond her house.

I like my own company and I'd come back and be much nicer to know.

My 9yo dd sounds just like other posters but she was ad ament that she was getting bullied and no one liked her so I made an appointment to talk to the head teacher about this and the outcome was a massive shock.. They think she's showing signs of autisim (she's 9 and been to same school since nursery) how can they just think this now?? I was in total denial but now four months later am starting to agree. Wehada psychologist appointment and he also thinks she could have it but we won't get a proper diagnosis for 6month. I thought it was just hormonal as she is starting to get breast buds, mood swings etc I just hope all our dds find happiness. It's also not nice when u see other girls in the same year group running about happy while my dd drags her feet to and from school, she used to love school and is super bright!!

Umm there seems to be a number of issues surrounding your eldest and these combined seem to be making for one unhappy little girl but the situation that you find yourself in is not that uncommon certainly the onset of early puberty will be upsetting and confusing for her. My daughter went through the same problem at roughly the same age but just to muddy the waters even more she also suffers from Cerebral Palsy my DD needed treatment to slow down the puberty which resulted in a series of injections being administered under local anaesthetic into her tummy so your DD's condition will be having a serious effect on her psychologically right now the jealousy and nastiness with your younger daughter is again pretty normal your eldest will be feling that life in general is unfair and seeing her sister not having problems and not being told off just (in her mind) re-emphasises how unfair the world is at the moment.

I have no doubt that your little girl is scared and confused and is expressing her fears through being naughty as this will undoubtedly get your attention and also release some of her frustration. She is demonstrating the fight reflex to fear rather than the flight reflex. My advise is to build on what you are doing at the moment increase the amount you talk to her increase the amount of cuddles at the same time as involving your younger daughter when appropriate if you are able to make her understand that you are there for her no matter what she does or says and there her little sister loves and idolises her then you will be half way to winning the battle.

With regards to your daughters lack of engagement with her education I would certainly be involving her class teacher in the healing process as working together with the school and letting the school be aware of what she is going through will reinforce the messages she is receiving from home.

If you are able to I would also highly recommend getting your daughter involved in another extra curricular activity there will be something else that your daughter will enjoy doing whether it be sport or arts and crafts by allowing her to do something else she enjoys it will introduce another positive in her life at a time when she is almost certainly having negative emotions in relation to growing up.

It also sounds as if your daughter is pretty strong willed this is a positive and not a negative as it is often the difficult strong willed child who goes on to be a high achiever but in the meantime she has to understand that no means no and that deliberately upsetting her little sister is the worse kind of bullying, if you do feel the need for punishment as in preventing her from going to Drama you need to make sure that you go through with it and not change your mind at the last minute doing this once is generally enough for a lesson to be learnt.

The hardest thing is not to shout especially if you are having a bad day but by not getting into an argument and ignoring her while she calms down and then talking to her does actually work, above all else hang in there and remember she is and always will be your little girl and what you are going through is something that you can get through together.

My daughter is now 17 going on 18 and in her final year of studying for her A levels she can still be difficult and opinionated she is a teenager developing into an adult after all but she is also an achiever and a relatively responsible young lady but I am still learning about her and probably always will be.