'In your face' and overly tactile DD age 4

[wingsandstrings]

My DD aged 4 is warm and funny and happy. She is outgoing and seems to have quite a few friends. She has no SN, is highly articulate, intelligent and in many ways socially aware. But she is in general a 'full on' personality, that's just her. She's very physical and determined - she can swim and ride a bike without stabilisers at just turned 4. The problem is, I can see that she overwhelms some kids and irritates others as she is just really 'in your face'. eg. She runs up and gives very tight hugs, she might try to pick them up even if they are bigger than her, she physically 'guides' them places. She is also obsessed by babies and anywhere there is a baby or toddler I can't relax as she is constantly trying to touch it, feed it, pick it up, push it about in its' buggy etc etc and although she is completely loving and gentle both the baby and the parent tend to get anxious/overwhelmed by the sheer force of her adoration. Today in the playground at drop-off and pick up I just felt so stressed because I was constantly peeling her off another child or a younger child, always saying 'darling, can you put so and so down in case you drop him' or 'sweetheart, I don't think x child is wanting another long hug'.
I don't know how to explain to her about personal space. How do you say to a 4 yr old 'you annoy people by getting up in their faces'? She adores babies and other kids and would be mortified to know that she annoys them sometimes. How do I enforce 'no hugging or grabbing another child' without dampening her affectionate nature? A no touching policy between kids is ridiculous. It also seems unreasonable to say that she can't touch babies, but how do I explain that she can touch but not overwhelm them?
Any ideas appreciated.

No, it's not unreasonable to say no, you can't touch babies. You can explain they are smaller and more easily hurt/frightened. Your examples of how you have tried to guide her in the past sound a bit wet IMO.

Could you tell her, in the specific case of babies, that they can get sick easily so we shouldn't touch them too much. Tell her it's ok to smile and wave. Also that she shouldnt pick up other kids in case she accidentally hurts them or they don't like it. I think it's important to teach her about personal space.

My DS is shy and would be very freaked out by someone all over him, especially if he didnt know them. It's lovely to have an affectionate child but I think it's important to teach her boundaries too. You just have to reinforce it and talk to her about it both in those situations and when you are alone/in quieter environments.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
It's all very well to say I'm being 'wet' in my guidance iPaddy, but more helpful would be some actual specific advice on how to manage the subtleties. Do you suggest that no 4 year olds should be able to touch their friends? If not, who can they touch, when can they touch, how can they touch?????? What language do I use to explain this to a child who doesn't automatically have a feeling for it? I realise I haven't got it right, that's why I've written a post. Fitzers, she wouldn't be touching your DS if she didn't know him - she isn't in indiscriminatory in her affections, she is affectionate to friends and acquaintances rather than strangers, but she doesn't know how to tailor her affections to be received in the way a particular personality might like. I did institute a no hugging policy with her peers because her hugging seemed to overwhelm some kids (but be delightedly received by others) however again it just seemed really unreasonable. Small girls are huggy, and a friend would come over and hug my DD and she would stiffen and look at me for guidance, like 'am I allowed to hug back?' What kind of world do we live in when a child can't show affection with their primary 'love language' or touch?

I have stopped her touching smaller babies altogether (6 months and below) - but it seems a bit unreasonable to stop her touching older ones in their prams eg. quite a few of my friends have 12-18 month olds and lots of kids would come over in the playground and take their hand or something, to me it would be weird to have her standing there unable to touch them . . . . but I do come from a more tactile country/culture where the British are considered to be terribly unfriendly and disliking of babies because they are not constantly grabbing little pudgy cheeks and thighs :) I myself as a child found the constant caresses of my numerous aunts and uncles rather off-putting so I do understand the importance of helping her get this right.

Ok, so you have already recognised that she is too rough around small babies and you have done something about that. That's good.

Instead of "darling, can you put so and so down in case you drop him" be more direct - "that's enough, off you go and play". The dropping him is a red herring and doesn't teach her that hugs should end.

Instead of "sweetheart, I don't think x child is wanting another long hug" - which is wet when a child is clearly uncomfortable IMO, again be more direct - "stop hugging X now please".

Can you teach her to hug for as long as it takes her to count to 3 or something?

What kind of world do we live in when a child can't show affection with their primary 'love language' or touch? is emotive bullshit, of course she can show affection, you just have to teach her the right way to go about it.

I suppose then just reinforce gentleness (I'm sure she is anyway but it's no harm to reinforce) and its fine to reciprocate/give a hug to friends and family but not to do it constantly? It sounds like you are saying its the amount of contact rather than the contact itself? So one nice hug on greeting and leaving, I think that kind of message is fair enough to give her.

Yes ipaddy, the idea of hugging until the count of three is good, I'll definitely say that to her. As I said in my initial post, she absolutely isn't too rough with babies, she is gentle, but the constant touching was too much. But she could be more gentle with her peers and older kids in terms of squeezey hugs. The reason I would say 'I don't think x wants another hug' rather than your formulation of 'stop hugging x now' is because my formulation gives her the reason WHY she should stop, and hopefully will prompt her in future to look for whether someone is wanting a hug or not.
Fitzers, yes it's the amount of contact really that I think is overwhelming.
And therein is the problem, it's the subtleties that I don't know how to explain. For example, in the 3 weeks since starting reception two different parents have said to me that DD was really kind and comforting to their child, and both occasions it was physical, one child was crying and wanting mummy and DD gave them a cuddle and the child told her mum that she felt much better, and the other child had fallen in the playground and DD again gave them a cuddle and took them by the hand and brought them to the teacher and again the child had told their parent that she made them feel much better . . . . so, for example, if I told her to just hug on meeting and on leaving she wouldn't have done either of those thing - it's hard to encapsulate in language to her when and where and how.

I think I agree with Ipaddy, it will not hurt you to be more direct at the time she has overstepped the mark, you can chat about it afterwards.

The reason you are finding it difficult to explain the nuances of when to give a hug/what type of hug is ok/who wants a hug is because she is 4 and just at the beginning of learning all this. I am very much for encouraging free expression but I think maybe you are overthinking it a bit. There is no prefect formula for teaching her this, she will learn the best way to do it by practise and the effects of your guiding her away from the over the top interactions and encouraging the gentle ones.

Keep praising her when she gets it's 'right' and being more direct with 'that's enough now' and removing her when it's too much (the other parents will thank you for this) and she will pick it up by osmosis, the way we all do.

I say to my 3 year old umpteen times a day 'Right, leave your sister alone, nice idea but that's a bit much now' and he has no trouble understanding that and moving on. It doesn't stop him from cuddling her when she's sad next time, or indeed nearly strangling her another time, but it's a process

Your dd sounds lovely, don't be afraid to pull her back though, she sounds very robust and confident, it won't dampen her spirit I'm sure.

Have you tried "look and check whether he/she is smiling?". For babies you can modify it to " is s/he looking away?". If they are not smiling then it's too much and time to let go is quite a clear signal for a four year old to look for.

My DD is the exactly the same - very boisterous and full on but very affectionate. She does loads of sport and rides her bike every where to zap her energy up. I have to be firm with her and at times pull her away and say x had had enough hugs. Her and DS rough and tunnel all the time too which it fine when it just them at home but gets a pain

Rough and tumble. Sorry. I have to stop her dragging her brother about in an affectionate head lock

My Dd is like this still at 6 1/2. We are a very physically affectionate family, more so that I really realised.

I've tried "hugging and kissing is only good if the other person likes it" and the more direct 'that's enough'. Neither has made much difference.

It's like she has no sense of what's appropriate.
Watching with interest.

Your DD sounds wonderful but I am biased because mine is very similar! She's constantly going up to other kids in the park asking them to play and is crushed if ever they don't want to! She's very physically affectionate and loves rough and tumble too. I have taught her to ask people before she hugs/ touches them. We also play a game where I squeeze and hug her until she's squealing for me to stop - then I make a big song and dance about stopping because she's asked and begging to hug her again- she always makes me promise 'not too much' and I've used this to talk about 'hugs are lovely but they can be too much'.

Not sure if it helps but we only hug and kiss our family members not our friends. Dd1 would hate to be hugged like this but dd2 is more tactile and this has worked well with her.

Watching this thread with interest as my DS is similar. I did find this on YouTube which is aimed at teaching younger kids about personal space and everyone's "bubble". I think it helped him visualize what I meant and now I usually just have to remind him to stay out of other peoples' bubbles.