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Behaviour/development

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Time In or Time Out?

26 replies

Festivalqueen1 · 26/09/2014 06:13

DS is 3 and a half, bright, wilful, spirited, demanding, eloquent.

When he goes OTT or simply misbehaves I use time out at bottom of stairs in full view of me so he is never alone. He dutifully sits there, sometimes crying, more often not upset, until I let him come off and talk about why he was there.

I have been reading that time in is much better because it doesn't teach the child that when they are having a hard time and misbehaving they must be alone in their struggle.

isn't ' time in' simply rewarding bad behaviour with cuddles and attention though? I cant get my head around it.

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ThisFenceIsComfy · 26/09/2014 06:22

Well I think sat in full view of you on a time out step is fine.

Rewarding screaming or hitting etc with attention surely won't do your DS any favours? I can't understand cuddling throughout a tantrum. It normally just prolongs the tantrum in my DS. I just stay near but don't engage until I can see he's ready to have a cuddle and a chat after.

Iggly · 26/09/2014 06:34

It depends. If you do it every time he goes OTT, that's a lot. He's only 3 and cannot handle his emotions. Time out clearly isn't working if it still happens, right?

I would save time out for serious transgressions. If he's having a tantrum take a quick step back and think - is he hungry/tired or could you prevent it in the first place?

insancerre · 26/09/2014 06:38

Time in definitely
When children misbehave its because they are struggling to cope with their thoughts, feelings and needs. They need attention but can't articulate it
So it presents as bad behaviour
Time in diffuses it and lets children know they are not on their own with their emotions.
All behaviour is communication, you just have to work out what they are trying to say.

FamiliesShareGerms · 26/09/2014 06:49

It depends - we use a combination with DD. Sometimes she gets into such a tizz that she needs space away from everyone for her own sake (and others' safety ) to calm down. Sometimes she needs the assurance of being with someone to help her calm down.

We don't do hugs as part of the time in, though she will be sat next to me or on my lap. But we always do big cuddles at the end of time in / out so that she feels reassured and supported.

Festivalqueen1 · 26/09/2014 06:55

No time out isnt really workig. I understand the reasons behind time in. Its not a tantrum situation. He doesnt tantrum. He argues and we talk things through. It can be anything from defiance, to playing up a lot whenever I haveca conversation with someone else (he shares toys beautifully but not me!) to agression (bundles and fighting play are for daddy - im pregnant. He knows this but will always push boundaries). Isnt time in giving him attention for bad behaviour?

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Asleeponasunbeam · 26/09/2014 07:04

Well if you see it like that, don't do it! If you feel you're rewarding him then you will be.

In fact, children don't tend to see it like that. Their 'punishment' is feeling so crappy in the first place. They don't actually enjoy having tantrums.

ThisFenceIsComfy · 26/09/2014 09:02

Yes a tantrum because my DS is tired/hungry/over excited is one thing. I am a master at distraction and redirect.

Sometimes though you have to set ground rules. Hitting for example gets a quick time out with a calm "no hitting".

Festivalqueen1 · 26/09/2014 09:30

Asleeponasunbeam I dont really know how to see it, which is why im looking to other parents for their discipline methods. Tantrums aren't the issue at all and never have been. The problem is bad behaviour and how to deal with it most effectively. On the odd occasion he has had a tantrun style meltdown I have loved him lots and cuddled him, but not given in to him, and its over with quickly.

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Iggly · 26/09/2014 15:30

It sounds like you need to teach him - it is a learning process and he needs to be given the methods for dealing with situations, not stuck in timeout.

So if he plays up you can give simple instructions as to what he should do as opposes to simply ignore him (which a time out does). Tell him straight away how to behave and give him a chance to do so then he can make the connection quickly. Time outs can prolong this.

murphy36 · 26/09/2014 18:35

Time in isn't hugging someone through a tantrum IMO.

It is post 'bad behaviour' talking through why it's been done, what should have happened why it's bad etc. to help you DC understand emotions and impact on others etc.

However, IMO you should still punish 'bad behaviour' as well as having the discussions.

Timeout specifically could be used - if it works, you know they need to be like 4minutes to be effective... but it might not and it'll lose it's effectiveness as time goes by and DC gets older anyway.

So, I'd favour other punishments, because immediate reinforcement that particular behaviour is bad is important, but still doing your chats to talk through the problem and emotions etc. at a quiet time/place is also important

MomOfABeast · 26/09/2014 20:39

I think you need to distinguish between deliberately bad behavior and lack of emotional control. Some kids more than others ave a very hard time dealing with string feelings when they're young. If they've lost control then there's little point punishing them because you're just giving them the impression that they're feelings are wrong rather than giving them the tools they need to control strong emotions. (Obviously if they're sing a meltdown you don't just I've them what they want but you can acknowledge their feelings and help them to calm down).

It's a very if fervent thing when they're just being deliberately naughty (eg the kindof tantrum at the check out when they cant ave a chocolate where there are no tears and they're just hoping that they'll get their way).

Stars66 · 27/09/2014 20:32

watching for ideas as dd has turned 2 and discovered the art of the tantrum!Shock

BertieBotts · 27/09/2014 21:06

You need to stop thinking about it in terms of "bad behaviour = always and only negative reinforcement, good behaviour = always and only positive reinforcement". That works for dogs and lab rats, but children are people and people are more complex. It also works on young children because young children inherently want to please you (even if they don't always show that - they do have the desire to, it's instinctive, not pleasing mum + dad = get kicked out of the tribe and death) But that desire to please you lasts until they hit adolescence, suddenly they don't want to please you any more, in fact they have a vested interest in striking out on their own. So if everything up until that point has been centred around your approval/acceptance, you will find that it begins to fall apart.

That's hardline. In reality I don't know many parents who literally operate under these rules. But it's worth bearing in mind - every behaviour is a reaction to something. I find thinking in terms of limits and boundaries is much better than trying to label things good/bad behaviour and react to that, especially as a lot of "bad behaviour" is a sign that the child has lost control and isn't really choosing as such to do what they are doing.

So the limit might be - you're allowed to be angry but I won't let you hurt me/your sister. You can use X thing but only under certain parameters (with removal of the thing if they can't abide by these rules).

When they are little it's much easier and more effective to prevent them crossing the limit as soon as you see them hit it and put measures in place to prevent/reduce it in the future. You have to be consistent about where the line is and this can't change arbitrarily - you can't ignore something one day and go hardline on it the next for example. But you don't necessarily have to enforce things in the same way all the time as long as that limit is consistent. When they are repeatedly prevented from crossing a line eventually they understand that the line is there and they don't think about crossing it.

With this approach it's also a good idea to talk about how we deal with situations, give them alternative options, think about what you don't want and turn that around to find the positive opposite behaviour that you do want, consider whether it's a reasonable expectation (e.g. expecting a 3 year old to never raise their voice - unreasonable. Asking them not to use certain words directed at people - reasonable), if it isn't reasonable, reassess. If it is reasonable, then think OK, why aren't they doing this [positive behaviour expectation] at the moment? Can you do anything to make it easier or more pleasant for them to choose the acceptable alternative or the positive behaviour? Are they able to comprehend why one option might be preferable? Are they in control at the moment this behaviour occurs and is there anything you can do earlier on in the interaction to prevent the loss of control while still keeping the limit in place (which is the most important thing - if you find yourself constantly battling limits vs compassion it may be an idea to check whether all of your limits are really battles worth fighting right now or whether they might be something that is grown out of.)

I did (do) find it helpful to have a generic punishment up my sleeve for moments when I'm too frazzled/angry/tired/short on time to figure out something better, and it's the only thing I found which sets the limit on rudeness, since you can't physically prevent that. Violence you can remove them, the victim or yourself or pre-empt by offering an alternative non-human item to bite or hit or kick. Rudeness you cannot stop them shouting through a closed door and until they can write there's not really much they can do to express this in an acceptable way. So removal of screen time for this. It's a good idea to have it be something that you can enforce without a physical battle - I used to remove the batteries from the remote, now I hold access to all chargers, and he has to ask to charge things in the first place which can of course be revoked.

Negotiation - has its place. But never ever ever ever ever negotiate past the limit. That is so important. Try to approach every issue which is important enough to have a set limit the same way you approach car safety - you might bribe them to get into the car seat, distract with a toy, use force, encourage independence by letting them climb up themselves, explain the reasoning, even let them have a choice between one car seat or another, just sit there with the engine off until they get in, any number of tactics but the one thing you would never do is say "Oh go on then, just for today, we're not going far."

Festivalqueen1 · 27/09/2014 23:00

Bertiebotts thanks so much for your extensive input. Much appreciated (and the input of the other respondees of course)

I can pinpoint almost all the 'undesirable behaviour' at home as being a reaction to not getting attention. He gets ample time and one on one attention, but if I try to converse with his father or a visitor, he becomes disruptive, destructive and OTT. Any advice?

When we are out, any undesirable behaviour is usually a reaction to either the excitement different surroundings / people, or again, my attention perhaps being shared if we are on a playdate with other mums and kids.

My boundaries are clear and limits are set and I dont give in to him. I have taken him home from parties in the past and from days out at legoland etc for unacceptable behaviour. He is bright, speaks incredibly well, and pushes boundaries constantly.

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Festivalqueen1 · 27/09/2014 23:02

I would welcome any advice you can offer regarding implementing positive discipline. Id love to be able to have a shprt conversation while he plays with a friend, or toys, without being lept on, a toy being thrown, or some other excessive behaviour to reclaim my attention. Thanks.

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BertieBotts · 27/09/2014 23:10

The attention thing is a phase, they get jealous of not having all of your attention. It's annoying but they grow out of it. It can help to state your expectations in advance - not in a threat way like "If you don't do X then I will take you out" or whatever but just explaining, sequencing (sooo helpful - they don't get time yet but they like to know what will happen so to explain today we're going to have breakfast, then you go to nurserey, after nursery we're going to grandma's house, at grandma's house you can play with the train set while mummy talks to grandma, after that we need to go to the shops and then we'll go home and have some dinner." Keep reminding throughout the day.

For new places/surroundings it's a good idea to be aware that it can be overwhelming and not just expect him magically to cope with it. Some kids are more sensitive to it than others. Playdates I find I get much better results if they happen at times when tiredness/hunger aren't an issue, and they aren't too long. Again state behaviour expectations before you start. It doesn't always prevent everything but hugely improved. If you sense an incident is brewing it can help to take him aside for a few minutes and wait until he is calm and talk to him before letting him go back in. Taking him home when it's really gone too far is good.

Talking to another adult, he's in an awkward in between stage where he probably doesn't have the independence and confidence to go off and amuse himself, especially with new children or if there aren't any other children, but he's also being needy and annoying about you trying to have a conversation. It can help to bring in the "make it easier for him to choose the acceptable option" by bringing something high value that he's not usually allowed for important conversations and/or helping him get settled doing something before you start talking adult to adult. It is something he has to learn but they do get there whichever way you go with it.

Festivalqueen1 · 27/09/2014 23:19

Stating expectations is a good call. I'll do that. Lengthy playdates arent good for him at all. He is usually bored at someone's house after 45mins to an hour. Tiredness exacerbates excessive behaviour for him. Some kids get grizzly and whiny (if only!). Mine gets incredibly demanding and OTT.

I only use ipad if I have to take him to an appointment. I dont think its good to rely on at other times really. Not a big fan of screentime, although he adores tv so perhaps that is something I can work with as a punishment if things get really awful.

im also pregnant so not sure whether I'll be making more use of screen time once DC2 arrives!

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Festivalqueen1 · 27/09/2014 23:19

P.s Bertiebotts you're a super fast typer!

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BertieBotts · 27/09/2014 23:22

It is a very very common phase and they grow out of it. Obviously don't reward it by interrupting your conversation and turning to him with doe eyes, but you can give him options.

"DS, I'm talking to X at the moment. You can sit here with us if you like but you'll have to be quiet. Or you can go over there and play with Y. I'm right here and I'll watch you."

And also it's not a crime to avoid the situation - arrange some girls' nights out or meet people when he's at nursery.

I can't remember when DS grew out of it but he's definitely not like it now, he's nearly 6. The hardest time for it was about three years old and then even when he was 4 or 5 (we moved house when he was 4.11 so lots of new places and people) if it was new children or there weren't children to play with he would be quite whiny and needy and clingy and generally difficult because (I think) he was feeling a bit insecure and didn't know anybody or anything and wanted to sit with me. Fine except he was so wriggly and annoying with it! I used to let him bring his DS console with him if I knew I really wanted to chat. And other than that tried to split meetings mentally into adult-focused (in which case, high play value setting e.g. soft play, electronics, children he knew, arrange meeting when he's not around) and child-focused, in which case I wouldn't expect to be able to chat with other mums/adults and felt it was a bonus if I did, so that was more of a win. Also tended to do more child focused ones with DH and/or other families so that different adults takes turns at being involved/distracting for the DC (dads and aunties are best at this I find Grin) and the others get a chance to chat and you can swap.

Picturesinthefirelight · 27/09/2014 23:24

I heard the phrase time in for the first time this week from the parent of a child with difficulties.

Can anyone explain how I can use time in , in a class situation without 1:1 support?

BertieBotts · 27/09/2014 23:29

45 mins to an hour quite typical I found. Now he's fine with long playdates and considers an hour to be no time at all, so it does get better (it's also great when you can drop them off and leave Grin - and somehow easier to manage 2+ children when you don't have their parent there and the expectation of being able to have a conversation with them around.)

It's just sort of a shift. You get used to the serene baby and toddler group situation where the children play happily with a stick or something and you can sit there with your tea and it just ends with a bit of a sudden jolt, they get anxious about stuff, they feel left out, they want to be part of your thing, they don't parallel play any more so they want input from other DC but they feel awkward and shy. Just part of growing up. Then it's a few years until they have decided actually adult conversation is mostly boring and they'd much rather entertain themselves/play with whichever child is around than sit and listen to you. And once they go to playdates alone you're not stuck in the situation where you expect your friends' DC to automatically be their friends, or have to try and make polite conversation with a parent of their friend who you have nothing in common with. There are just fewer overlaps between your friendships and it means that you can separate it out more.

And yes I type too much Grin but I am fast!

mumnosbest · 27/09/2014 23:34

As my DC have got older and more expert at winding me up 'time out' has become more 2-way. Sometimes they make me so cross I send them for timeout so I can calm down and explain what they did wrong/should have done. My eldest 2 DS 9yrs and DD1 7yrs know timeout means I'll be calmer and DD2 just 2yr has time out which either works or doesn't but is a routine which gives us space and I know will be beneficial when she's older

BertieBotts · 27/09/2014 23:34

Pictures I think ask them specifically what they mean by it, with all of these buzzwords it's hard to know sometimes what somebody means.

There are two main definitions of time in that I have heard. One is basically time out but without the ignoring the child aspect - you remove them from a situation and sit with them while they melt down and then discuss the situation basically.

The other is not a direct behaviour management tool but more of an indirect approach, it means that you spend time with the child investing in your relationship and building their trust and then you're better placed to spot what's triggering the behaviour or work with them to eliminate it/work through options. It doesn't tell you anything about how to deal with disruptive behaviour at the time.

Neither particularly relevant for a mainstream school situation, perhaps elements of the second definition. Great if the child has a one to one support especially if the support person moves up the school with them but not as helpful for the class teacher especially if this changes every year.

Festivalqueen1 · 28/09/2014 19:16

Bertiebotts thanks so much for all your input. You have given me massive food for thought. Much appreciated.

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BertieBotts · 28/09/2014 19:43

Thanks festival Blush If only I was as good at explaining my thought process to my DH Grin