Dh and dd ... it's like a battle zone

[WigWamBam]

Dh generally does bath and bed time, but for the past few months it really has been like a battle zone. The pair of them end up yelling and screaming at each other and it's driving me up the wall.

He asks her to do something, she ignores him. He reckons he can ask her 15 times and still no response. So he yells. And then she screams back, so he yells some more.

Bedtimes are dreadful. She won't go to the toilet before bed, so we end up having WW3. Tonight she wouldn't take her hairband off and the yelling and shrieking that ensued probably had the entire street gossiping. Eventually he gets her to take it off, and she ends up shouting, banging her legs on the bed, crying and distressed because he's lost it with her again.

Last night he smacked her. We have always said that we would never smack or use physical punishments with dd, but he felt that he didn't have anything else to use as a punishment. She doesn't respond to anything else he does.

I think she's pushing the boundaries to see how far she can go. I also think there's an element of winding him up because she knows she can, and then watching the cabaret that he puts on when he blows up. But even so it ends up upsetting her as much as it does him.

I don't know how to tell him to deal with this. I've told him how I would handle it, but he reckons he's tried and it doesn't work. I've told him he needs to pick his battles, suggested he tries counting to three (always works for me), time-out - you name it, he reckons it doesn't work for him. I've tried to tell him that the more he shouts the less she will listen, but it doesn't wash - he'll be up there again tomorrow night yelling and screaming at her, and I'll be down here sobbing my heart out about it.

The only thing I can do is do it myself, because I don't have any of these problems. But he doesn't want that either, because he wants to spend time with her and he wants to do the bed and bath thing. He just doesn't want the battle that goes with it. He doesn't seem to see that he's half the problem. He's always been quite hard on her, and I've told him before that he expects more from her than she is capable of giving.

She is winding him up though, I can't deny that her behaviour for him isn't what it would be for me. But that said, she's only 5 and he is the adult ... I just don't know what to tell him to try and help him get that balance back again.

He hates it, she hates it, I hate it. What can I suggest to him to make life easier? What can we try to stop these tantrums (from both of them)? I keep telling him to remember she's only 5, and actually she's not a naughty child, but still he acts as if she's much older and much naughtier than she really is.

Can you not explain to him that you should do the bed/bath routine for a few nights for them both to 'cool down'? It's great that he wants to spend time with her, but it's clearly no fun for either of them. You're right, he is the adult, and if he can't accept that he will have to modify how he deals with her to remedy the situation, it will just get worse. it sounds like his expectations of this 'quality time' with your dd are way too high - she's tired, he's probably tired too, and as you say it's turning into a battle zone. Can he spend more fun time with her at weekends, going out for day, just them, etc?

He takes her swimming on a Saturday; nine times out of ten he comes back telling me how he's had to tell her off for this or that, or how she wouldn't get out of the pool when he told her to ... nothing major, but the kind of thing that he then ends up getting on at her for.

I have suggested several times over the past couple of weeks that I ought to do bath and bed, but he's reluctant to relinquish it because he wants to do it, but he wants to do it well.

I think he sees the bad behaviour as being all on her part, he doesn't like it when I suggest that actually he's not exactly behaving well.

Does she have a story before bed? What about you doing bath, loo etc (i.e. all the battle-worthy bits) and then him doing the story? Then if she mucks around at all for him, he can simply shut the book and switch her light off. You definitely need to do this for a while - enough time to have broken the cycle IYKWIM.

This is something else I've said - it's going to take time to break the cycle, but he doesn't know what to do to break it, and just ends up in the same rut.

At bedtime she's generally OK while she has her story, it's afterwards that it starts. She won't get off the bed (we have the story in our bed, then she has a wee, teeth cleaned, and into her own bed), she won't go to the toilet, she won't lie the right way up in bed ... it's endless. But because she's already had the story, he can't "punish" her by stopping reading or saying that there's no story tonight.

He's tried doing it the other way round (wee and teeth first) and has then been able to say "no story" but it hasn't really had much of an effect.

The more he shouts the less she listens, and he shouts a lot.

It's sounds like he's a bit of a perfectionist, and is maybe tranferring this onto your dd's behaviour. I think maybe you need to take control of the situation, tell him he is expecting too much of her, and that you are going to do the bedtime routine for a few days. He risks spoiling ALL his time with her if he doesn't back off a bit.

Wig, it sounds from your post as if your dh has one approach, and one approach only with your dd. I'll be blunt and say that as the adult it is up to him to think his way round this more than he appears to be; it's no good asking a child 15 times then exploding at her - he needs to ask once, then again explaining what the consequence will be if she doesn't do as she is asked; then apply the consequence, eg no story or whatever....

Or he needs to lighten up, make use of her competitive streak and make things into a race or a game. I am constantly amazed at how often people expect their kids to instantly and unquestioningly comply with orders - we are not bringing up people to be unquestioning and blindly compliant, surely? Why do people think this is a good quality in a child or even remotely realistic? He really, really needs to lighten up and to re-evaluate both his expectations of her and his understanding of her 5 yr old abilities!

the things you have suggested will work, he is just not trying them, tbh! I do really feel for you and I hope I'm not too blunt but your approach and what you have said to him are spot on - he is just not listening, is he?

Things like not going to the loo before bed and not taking her hairband off - just leave her alone, I say! My ds won't be told when to go to the loo, he is a human being with his own will and he takes himself off when he needs to; I trusted him to do this and it's worked fine, he gets himself up in the evening sometimes to go and that's fine.

And what harm in leaving her hairband on? If uncomfortable, she will soon whip it off.

He really needs to learn to let her take some of her own decisions in life......

OK well it really sounds like he's not following through or giving things a chance to change (on the basis that things tend to get worse before they get better).

She has absolutely no incentive not to play up for him if she's having the story first, all snuggled up on your bed. I really do think you need to take him out of the equation totally (and don't blame it on her behaviour - invent some important project that Daddy needs to be getting on with) and rearrange her routine so she's having the story last with him, snuggled up in her own bed. Then if she mucks about, there's no need for him to shout, he just says goodnight and walks out. No point in throwing a wobbly if you haven't got an audience.

Once you've broken the cycle though, he is going to have to come up with a better strategy than shouting...

Peggotty, he's definitely a perfectionist. I've told him tonight that he expects too much of her, but he didn't really have an answer apart from to ask whether it was too much to expect her to do as he asked. And of course it isn't - but she's 5, and his expectations have to reflect that.

I think the only answer is to do it myself - which will hack him off. He's away for a couple of days later this week so it would be down to me anyway, but it's because he's away so much that he wants things to be nice when he's here.

I've said to him before that if he carries on like this she's not going to want to spend time with him. He thinks I'm being over-dramatic but I think it's true.

Well maybe reorganise things so it is loo, teeth and then story in her bed? Possibly a shake up of the routine might also help with the negative bits because it sounds like they have actually become part of the routine.

FWIW we do wee, bath, into DD's room (next to bathroom which is tiny) for getting dry and into pjs, back into bathroom for teeth and then DH and I alternate reading DS and DD stories in/on their own beds. And I do Sunday-Thursday and DH does Friday-Saturday baths.

When my DH and DD1 weren't getting on I told him that they needed to spend some time together. I told him to take her out to dinner once a month. Didn't have to be anywhere special, but just so that they got time out together. It really improved their relationship and amazingly quickly.

They got to know each other with no one else getting in the way. In fact DH decided (off his own back) to buy her a small bunch of flowers (tulips) as well. The habit has stuck and he takes both of the older DDs out, separately. They have a fab relationship with him. When DD3 is old enough he'll do the same with her.

I hope that helps. I know it's not an immediate thing, but honestly WWB it really helped them and the shouting and screaming stopped.

Sunnyside, I agree with everything you've said (it's a relief to know that I'm not wrong, actually!). I have said to him almost everything that your post says.

Maybe the lightening up and making things into a game would be good for him as well as for her. I agree about the blind obedience that some parents expect ... I like questioning in a child. Maybe just not at bedtime when she really does have to get off our bed to go to hers! But yes, I do agree with you.

I did suggest he might have left her with the hairband on but it's a plastic one and he was concerned with safety (thinks too much).

I keep telling him to pick his battles; there are enough necessary ones without starting unnecessary ones as well.

The shouting drives me mad, flashingnose. I shout sometimes but it's not a regular thing because I think they listen far better if you're calm and rational. And yes, he has to develop better strategies.

maybe she is getting independant and wants to have a bath on her own and go to bed by herself?i dont think i was still bathing dd1 when she was 5...i think i just ran it and made sure she'd rinsed her hair properly if it was hair-washing night.
IME 5 yr old girls dont like being told what to do,and tend to start answering back and getting gobby.my xp(dd1's father) used to get really wound up with her and then say it was my fault cos she was like me.i knew it was cos she could hear the stress in his voice and realised he was losing control so she just took advantage to try and get her own way.

Sorry ladies, he's back so can't stay here for much longer. Will check back later. Thanks for the responses.

As sunnysideup is saying, he needs to choose his battles - does it really matter if she wears a hairband to bed or that she's in bed the wrong way round?
It's a real shame as he obviously wants to be a good father to her but is being a bit pig-headed. And poor you, stuck in the middle!

I wish I knew the answer WWB because I've just been sitting here listening to dh and both my dss yelling at each other in exactly the same way.

Although (clearly) it hasn't sorted everything yet, I find that my best approach with dh is to take the 'we' approach. What shall 'we'do about ds not listening (or whatever), and then he doesn't feel that I am having a go at him for his crap parenting skills (which I am really!).
Then I try to lever the conversation around to agree some type of reward based system e.g. if ds gets in to bed with clean teeth by (agreed time) he gets 5 minutes extra of story. Agree it with dh first, explain it to the dss, then they all seem to think it was their idea and for a while it's all great. (problem yet to crack is dh's inconsistency -he'll offer ds ten quid to clean his teeth and then when it's done he'll say he was only joking... grrrrr)

Blimely - men and childcare. Anyone would think some men had never had a childhood of their own.

Hmm divastrop that is interesting. As the kids get older I am less sure what to do at bathtime. DS is 5 but DD is only 2 so my presence is required. But this last week or two I have just washed them and then sat on the toilet with my book and let them entertain themselves. Probably ought to stop washing DS.

Marsy, that's a lovely idea.

Diva, she likes us to stay with her so we generally do. Sometimes she asks us to leave her alone, and we do that too. The problems start when he asks her to wash her hair/have a wash/get out of the bath. She certainly doesn't want to go to bed on her own yet, likes her snuggles and stories too much.

She's not bad with me telling her what to do although she's starting to answer back a little bit ... I can deal with that though - I'm a little more laid back about it than dh. What you say about him getting wound up because she can hear the stress in his voice, realises that he's losing control so taking advantage definitely strikes a chord though - I think that's partly the problem with dh.

He does want to be a good dad, and he is in so many ways. But he's trying too hard to get her to comply, I think - I'm more laid back and won't make an issue of her getting into bed upside down and silly things like that because it's not a big thing.

Someone said something about expecting blind compliance, and the more I think about it the more I think that's part of the problem.

It was me who said about him expecting her blind compliance.....it really does sound as if this is one big issue for your dh. This is where parenting is so hard because we are having to move the goalposts all the time as kids grow and their needs change. He is still trying to get her into bed all neat and tidy like a little toddler, all tucked up and laying happily. But she has moved on and is now a young girl with her own opinions on how to do things and if she wants to be in bed upside down why the hell shouldn't she!

but it is hard to recognise these subtle changes and adjust your parenting accordingly, particularly for a man who is not with the child all day, and doubly so for a perfectionist like your dh.

Maybe you could try the approach someone suggested of talking to him about "What can WE do about her at bedtime, blah blah..." but I think maybe you've tried that already? I think maybe you could do the bath and bed now and suggest that he has other times with her; simply playing before bed, going to the park, and taking her on a 'date' once a week, with flowers like Marsy's dh - fabulous idea! Try to make their time more simply about being together rather than him having to deliver a washed, brushed, read to child to bed!

Maybe after time the bed and bath thing could be re-introduced....but you'll have to present it in a non-negative way to your dh else he will feel that you think he's failed. Which he has. But he mustn't know that you know. Cos he's a man.

Sunnysideup, what you say makes so much sense to me. I'm interested in how you deal with things that require a certain amount of "blind compliance", especially when you're up against some time pressure e.g. tooth brushing, sitting in car seats etc.? This is where I seem to have most of my battles ATM (kids are 7, 5 and 3).

sorry WWB for the slight hijack.

phew, well flashy I'm not saying I deal with it right myself

All I can say is that with ds I have always exaplined that certain things have to be done for SAFETY (said in reverential tones!) and I think he just knows that I will value his ideas and the way he wants to do things, so on the occasions when I say he must do this or that, eg not wriggle out of seatbelts, then he is more prepared to listen, knowing that I don't normally order him about iyswim.

However ds is 4 so he does not always think rationally and definitely challenges me, as in today where he wants to be allowed to cross roads on his own!!!! I ended up carrying him across, screaming, when all else had failed however I rarely have to do this so I don't agonise. If it's for safety then I simply will take charge.

I think mainly it's just that I try to be light hearted with him. Kids have a great sense of fun and ds will 99% of the time, engage in games, races, or do stuff that I bet him he can't do; but nothing works all the time; and that's just with one, having 3 at the ages yours are is surely a challenge!

dunno if this makes any sense, hth.

Thanks for the reply - I think that's the problem tbh, nothing works forever and there are some things (like teeth-brushing and putting-shoes-on in this house) that are, let's face it, not the most exciting things for a kid to be doing. And sometimes I just get a little....tired of thinking up the next strategy for getting them to do things that they just have to .

But tomorrow is another day

I think what I'm trying to say is don't make life one long power struggle with your kids - let them make their own decisions as far as you safely can, do things with them as much as you can as their mate, and always think about whether it's time to relinquish another little bit of control.

If kids feel bossed about they are much more likely to challenge every little thing that you say and do, which is such a draining way to live....they can only be defiant if they have something or someone to defy......thinking creatively about how to get him with me rather than against me is my lifesaver with my ds, who is a very strong character!

oops, x-posted....yes, I so know what you mean, the thinking creatively is just so tiring sometimes - just sometimes we ALL want our kids just to do what they are told!

Another 'yeay' to Sunnysideup's post....think lightening up and finding ways to have fun together is a real key. It sounds like its all become far too much hard work and theyh're both locked into a power struggle they don't know how to get out of - and yes, its the adults job to lead the way.
I can relate to some extent because my dh and dd (nearly 3) have had a few stand-offs at bedtime recently, which sound very similar (though dh doesn't shout) and we were just talking about it tonight. In dd's case, she is definitely going through some sort of increased independence milestone...and she wants us to notice and acknowledge it. I've twigged thats what it is, and stood back and applauded what she can do herself, instead of trying to make her do it the old way (ie my way) and its working - suddenly I'm the good guy
DH on the other hand, hasn't quite caught up with her changes...and his old ways aren't working, he needs to change them.
I wonder what your dd would like from her Daddy, given the choice? Maybe figuring that out would give some clues as to what he could do differently?

Like the making it 'what can we do about this' approach but wonder if you could take it a stage further and get dh to sit down with dd (and you) to try to come up with some ideas? Obviously you need to have the 'we' conversation with dh first, and she's only five etc. etc. but might be worth involving her to some extent.