Toddler behaviour - bit out of my depth!

[SproutsMa]

Hi every one - bit of background. My 2yr old son has some strong flags for autism. I'm an older mum, not a huge amount of experience with little ones, but I do adore my boy. He's just turned 2 and his behaviour is changing - I dont know how much of it is entirely normal for the "terrible twos" and how much I am reading into it being something else. How much behaviour change (willfulness, tears, independence, moody etc) should I expect as normal toddler behaviour?

Eek - I sound totally incapable!

Sounds fairly typical for a two-year-old to me!

FWIW, we've got friends whose DD didn't talk until she was 4. She could make herself understood, had loads of speech therapy and so forth but nothing. Eventually one specialist somehow connected speech to movement - their DD learned to jump and hop, and shortly after, speech flowed.

Some children are naturally late talkers. From what you say, it doesn't sound as though the nursery are being particularly helpful. Any chance you can review what they're doing or scope out alternatives?

Well its actually not the most convenient location for us anymore anyway. We just moved out of a city and into the suburbs so he has a garden (which he loves!) and so that his dad can get to work easier. However is does mean a mega 2 hour commute and drop off for me before work! lol.

I just felt that maybe now he has settled there and they have got used to me pushing them maybe it was a better environment for us all to learn? Hmm, maybe I should consider moving him - it just seems like such a big thing for a little one.

He might perhaps be more comfortable in a smaller nursery or a childminder?

I think at such a young age they're fairly ok with change. We recently moved (although have not changed nursery). DD has gone from having a cot in our room to having a 'big girls bed' in her own room, in a place with a totally different layout and environs.
Took her a day to get over the change!

I wouldn't worry too much about moving him. It does seem a big thing, but they are so versatile. And perhaps a childminder would suit him better...

It is a fairly small one (35 children) and I think that's half the problem - there is no "in between" class that could accommodate anyone not quite where they should be. I did think of a childminder but I get childcare vouchers from work - i didn't think they could take them?

I could investigate it though - although Edinburgh childminders seem to be even more expensive than nursery and we are already paying nearly £1k a month.

the bed is the next challenge! :D

If it helps, we did the bed incrementally.
Started out with taking the side off the cot and putting a duvet on the floor beside it. Then we put the new big mattress on the floor with the duvet beside it, and then we progressed to the big bed. She's had it around two months now and only fallen out of bed once. So far! :)

It sounds like you are doing all the right things OP. The paediatrician is the best person to speak to in this instance. I'd take note of all the things you have concerns with, it could just be a slight developmental delay which will be rectified on it's own. Does he seems as though he's understanding what you are saying. Like if you asked him to get you a specific toy he plays with would he know what you are talking about?

Our CM takes childcare vouchers. Worth looking into. I have to say the comments your nursery have been making to you don't sound ideal.

sometimes [Clarabum] but not always.

If you have a feeling that something isn't right there then you are on the right track to getting it investigated. I'd try and keep a diary of things that concern you. Issues where he has a meltdown, what triggered it etc. It doesn't seem like anything really when you look at things in isolation however when the big picture is formed then it could point to something like ASD. Not to worry you but I just want you to get the right help.

I have a son who has ASD and he used to say whole garbed phrases that sounded like words. It turns out they were phrases from his television programmes he liked to watch.

Does he seem to be sensitive to sound? Does he ever show you things apart from bowls/cups. He is communicating his needs on a basis level so he doesn't really need to talk however I think if you have concerns then you should get it addressed. Have nursery mentioned ASD to you?
Do you feel confident in the nursery's care? Do you feel like they understand you?are accommodating?
Hugs- this is really stressful. I know.

Thanks Clarabum - like I said I panic about meltdowns but they are very rare, normally its a tantrum that is over pretty quickly.

No - I think nursery treats it as a dirty word, they are trying to get him some support after I pushed for it (maybe that isn't fair, they said in the past parents haven't been keen to involve other parties - I just want him to have what he needs). They originally said that he wasnt making eye contact and that none of the staff could connect with him - this is definitely not true anymore, probably only 10% of his time he seems away with the fairies (like his dad ;))

The things that sound like words tend to be when we say something to him - example they other day I warned him two or three times not to stand near the door as someone might hit him on the way and he ran away shouting something like OKAYYYY! When he is eating he sometimes says Yum - but he could be copying me saying that I guess. Sometimes Mummmm, lots of Yays etc. He is odd with sound. Sometimes lots of kids around will make him a bit sensitive and teary and then he will be in an extremely loud busy and noisy environment and it wont bother him at all.

Yes he brings me he bubbles to blow them and his toys to make them work, or to play with them with him but I have heard that can be common of children with asd too.

It is stressful. My husband isnt dealing with the situation very well and sees my keenness to get support and or a diagnosis as negativity and "writing him off". I dont feel that way.

Clarabum - do you have any other children. We had agreed before this that we would have more but now I feel like that wouldnt be fair to him or any other children who could be affected. Do you have an opinion about that at all?

Hi, I have a toddler who is a similar age and he displays a lovely wide variety of challenging behaviour on a daily basis! this morning we've had biting, spitting, and a mega tantrum in sainsburys... Exhausting! But I think entirely normal. Tiredness and hunger/thirst are mega triggers here.

I also work in a school with a nursery attached and don't think that the nursery are dealing adequately with your son. Isolation and keeping him with younger children is not the answer. I send DS to a childminder (although am planning to change to nursery in the new year for convenience reasons) and she accepts childcare vouchers so don't let that anxiety put you off changing childcare setting.

My 2yo 3m DD is an absolute loony at the moment, but it was only a month ago we were commenting on how chilled out she was. Now, even though she can talk really well, she will have totally unexplained meltdowns, seemingly over nothing, and it's impossible to understand her. I have found reading the book Toddler Calm really helpful in knowing how to deal with it - was a recommendation I got from MN and it really helps you understand what's going on in their little heads. I'd really recommend it, just to give you some reassurance and tips if nothing else.

Hi sprouts,
Sorry I was out at the swings there. I have three kids, DS(7) DS2(asd 5) and DD(2). I knew for a long time before I actually admitted to myself that there was something wrong. DD was 8 days old when I eventually got to the point where DP and I both had to say it out loud.
We were surrounded by people placating us with "All kids develop at different rates" and "he'll talk when he's ready" and for ages I just wanted to believe them. Every 6 weeks or so though I'd ask DP or DM or anyone if they thought there was anything 'wrong' with DS and of course they'd say of course not.

It's a hard situation as you don't want to worry anyone by suggesting there might be anything there but in my experience it's better to know early and get the right intervention asap. IF and I do mean IF the outcome is ASD which it really might not be. So don't jump ahead but if it is then help is there.

The help I've had from educational services has been brilliant. I'm on the west coast of scotland so I'm imagine it'll be similar in edinburgh. Same government etc. He really has came on leaps and bounds since we got a diagnosis last year.

Nursery have been fantastic and you really NEED them to be sympathetic and really get to know your child's quirks or any wee issues he might have. I'd perhaps look into other nurseries. Go speak to a few of them and just be candid- explain the situation and that you don't feel supported by them and that you are looking for an alternative.

You are correct, he should be in with his peers as this is the only way that children learn social norms so well done for fighting that.

Regarding DH, he's probably just sticking his head in the sand a wee bit and is being fiercely protective of him. I have been the same at points. I totally understand that no on is writing him off but the whole situation of a speech delay is a hard thing emotionally to deal with.

You have a baby and you just assume that everything will be perfect then suddenly there's a wee question mark on the horizon. A wee unknown. It's a complicated thing to work out.

I won't lie, it's a hard shift having three of them. DS1 misses out on things as we can't take ds2 to certain places due to sensory issues. Taking all three of them to the park on my own is a nightmare. You just really need to play it by ear I think. Could you put having more children off for a few years until you see how his progress develops?
On the flip side, Ds2 definitely benefits from having a brother and a sister. He is pretty much forced to be social all the time. We live in a tiny house and there is no space so he has to share, take turns, interact at a table, be kind, be semi quiet and moreover he demonstrates love to his siblings which my home visiting teacher tells me is quite unusual. I sometimes think that if he had been an only child then he would have turned our house into a wee dictatorship. He has that type of personality.

To be honest, from what you have told me I think you should get it investigated further. Just purely to put your mind at rest. A professional will be able to tell you more.

There are also two great books that i'd recommend getting to help with his speech

Hanen- It takes two to talk (for speech delays)

Hanen- More than Words (for kids on the AS) this one is brilliant. There's a great section at the beginning highlighting all the differing symptoms of the Autistic Spectrum. It can be so varying, it's baffling initially. My speech therapist sent me on the More Than Words course which was excellent. Ask around and see if they are running one in your area.

If you have any other questions then just ask.

Sorry this was a massive essay. :)

apologies for missing letters and spelling mistakes

notmuchofaclue - thank you for that tip about Toddler Calm, I just went and had a look for it and found they do Saturday afternoon classes in my area - I might have to try one for a few new tips and techniques!

2 years, 2 months is pretty young still for talking. My DS is 2.9 now and he never stops talking, great vocab, running commentary on everything. People regularly comment on the fluency of his speech but at 2 he was just average, had about 50 words, didn't use sentences etc.

A few friends of mine were worried about their DC's speech at 2/2.5 because they weren't using their words at all. Some had appointments with speech therapists for a while. Now at 3 or close they're all fine. From my experience I would say that speech delay is only a real concern past 2.5 or even 3. And remember that at this age, just 1 month can make a huge difference. They really progress in fits and starts at this age!

Your nursery doesn't sound great though. Sounds like they have just worried you and been negative rather than trying to support you. A change might help you and your DS make a clean break?

I meant to add to that last post. I wouldn't worry about the meltdowns. The sound like regular toddler tantrums to me. My dd is two and has them over the slightest wee thing.
An asd meltdown is totally different. Prolonged and unable to control their emotions or actions. A tantrum is for attention and is very much controlled by the small person.

Thurlow glad to pass the tip on, since I picked it up from some other wise mn'er. The book does talk about sessions that they run.I reckon they'd be really good if the book is anything to go by. Might have to see if there are any round my way!