Lying (3.5yo) - how best to deal with it

[DIYandEatCake]

Dd has just started telling lies to try to get herself out of trouble or get someone else into trouble. The couple of occasions it's happened, we've had a serious talk about why you shouldn't lie, and told her that as long as she tells the truth we'll try to help her with whatever pickle she's in, if she lies then there will be consequences. She has been made to apologise to the person she tried to get into trouble (took a long time and lots of grief but got there in the end).

Just wondering how everyone else deals with lying at this age. Trying to explain the line between fantasy (she has a very active imagination) and lie is difficult - would especially like help with this. Thanks!

Read something a while ago about saying things like "Would you like that to be true, (name)?" when you know it's a definite lie.

It has helped a couple of times.

It's tricky because I don't think dd (has been doing this since same age) has any understanding of why it is bad or always that she is doing it. If she says something immediately disproveable, I'll say I just saw you do x. If she says something preposterous 'I can fly to the moon' I'll just give her a sceptical look. Sometimes she lies when she can't remember or is timelines confused 'I didn't have a biscuit yesterday' and I'll point out that she did. I don't think it's right to make a big fuss though and wouldn't punish at this age as I think it's all a part of verbal development and storytelling. We tell kids there are fairies, Father Christmas, magic etc and they're much too young to be able to pick it all apart.

It's a long time since I've done any toddler-wrangling byt the first thing that strikes me is you're having 'serious talks' with a three year old.
Others will no doubt disagree but imo this is far too young to be thinking about discipline in this way.
And apologising means nothing - she can't comprehend what it means nor truly feel empathy so it's pointless.
Try and lighten up about things and see the funny side occasionally; it all sounds rather onerous and not much fun.
She 's actually not much more than a baby, although if she's articulate this can give the impression of a greater emotional maturity than exists. Save the 'serious talks' for when you really need them in 10+ years' time.

Thanks for the answers so far, I can always rely on mumsnet for a bit of perspective. I will try not to be too hard on her - I'm not normally, it's just kindness and honesty are the things that are really important to me, and I was a bit surprised at her deviousness earlier (trying to get the friend in trouble). Shotgun I know where you're coming from, but I do think it's important she knows that lying to get people into trouble is wrong, just as hitting them/calling them names would be.
I'd still like more ideas on explaining the difference between a 'bad' lie and a harmless one. The more I think about it the more confused I get myself. Like Gen said, lies like Santa Claus are everywhere, and I'm guilty of the occasional white lie...

I would too, tbh I do tell dd that fairies, monsters, magic etc are just stories and pretend, but I'm drawing the line at Father Christmas! I'd probably explain it as some lies hurt other people, those are really bad, and some lies are just silly fun, it's more fun to believe magic exists. Interesting to see what others have said. I've given dd lectures on why lying is bad at the start, I agree with you, honesty and kindness are the most important things we have to teach, also, although I can see it goes over dd's head, there's no harm in repeating a consistent message, at some point it'll click.

This is an interesting one for me as we recently had an issue when dd (2.4) pretended to be ill to come home from nursery. Now, she spends half her life engaged in telling fantasy stories (that we are running away from bears, dinosaurs etc), which is obviously play and therefore fine, but I have no idea how to really explain that that sort of fantasy play is fine, but telling lies which have a serious consequence (like worrying nursery staff and your parents) isn't. Luckily she has not done it since so far, touch wood!
My only idea would be to discuss specific examples and why they are ok or bad - lots of children's books and children's tv progs have examples related to this issue, too. There is an episode of Melody, for example (dd loves this) where she lies to her mum about tidying her room, then starts to feel a bit bad, then in the end apologises.
On a slightly different tack, I know most people are much stricter/firmer with their dc than me (lax parent!) but was wondering what your dd could have done which would get her "in trouble" which she felt she needed to lie to escape - and was she actually "in trouble", or did she just think she was? Am not saying that in a condemnatory way - just wondering if she has a perception, perhaps an entirely misplaced one, that she will face harsh negative consequences for actions which is leading to her becoming anxious? Could be totally wrong, of course.

The lying about a friend was the worst one, she sought out their mum and said 'x is being naughty, she pushed baby y over and hit her and made her cry' none of which happened, I was with said baby all the time. The friends mum came rushing over all concerned and started questioning her poor dd who knew nothing of it.
Lying to get out of trouble, it's nothing serious, just denying having eaten some chocolates (when I caught her climbing down from the table with chocolate round her chops lol), saying she's done things when she hasn't and vice versa.
We're not big punishers or anything, don't shout, don't use the naughty step, mostly do natural consequences (eg when everyone else had chocolates later she missed out as she'd already had some earlier). Thanks, I shall look up books and tv programmes.
I think she is a bit out of sorts at the moment, acts babyish to get attention (she has a 8mo brother) and is generally pushing boundaries and asking 'whhyyyyy?' all the time and, well, just being 3.5 I think. But I'm finding lying quite hard to deal with and explain. I know, I know, there's plenty worse to come!

It all sounds really normal to me, my dd has no sibling yet (2 months!) but she does all of these things, one minute she's a big girl and the next minute she's making baby noises!