DS6 - his teacher thinks he may have ODD

[PrinceCorum]

feeling pretty depressed - our DS6 (soon to be 7) is going through a phase (for about 3 months) of being defiant to his class teacher at school - saying "no" and refusing to engage in some class activities. His teacher wants us to take him to the GP and has mentiond oppositonal defiant disorder. I'm just not convinced though and am in a quandary. I will speak to her about it, of course, and give consideration to the idea of a GP consultation (which I guess might lead to a referral to a child psychologist), but I'd love to hear your advice/experience.

Here's the thing - yes he can be defiant, both at home and school - he's often argumentative, defiant at home. But he can go for a week at school and be fine, and long periods at home and be fine. I've read up about ODD and I'm not 100% convinced it describes him. He doesn't have ADHD or any other disorder.

I have to say at the back of my mind I'm wondering if the teacher just wants some label to be put on him to make her feel better for the fact that she can't always get him to do what she wants him to do.

Am I wrong to want to know what the teacher can do to work with my child to improe his behaviour? I feel a little bit as though saying "maybe he should see the GP" is a knee-jerk reaction to any behaviour they don't have an answer to. I do worry that we look to label children with difficult behaviour and medicalise them when it's not always needed.

I'm not saying ADHD or ODD aren't real - I don't want to get into that debate. But I am worried that, in a class that seems to be full of goody two shoes kids who never seem to misbehave my DS stands out not because he is clinically ODD but just that he's a bit strong willed.

Anyone else gone through this quandary ?

I can only speak for DS1's primary school (where I do reading for Y1) and another primary school (where I volunteer to mentor 9/10 year olds).

I assume that there must be children in DS1's class with SEN, but I see no evidence that any of them are treated differently from the rest. Some are less good at reading than the average, of course, but I have seen some of those excel at other things, like maths. The teacher and TA seem to have gone to great lengths to treat each child as an individual and tailor the time they spend with each to his/her specific learning needs. DS1 struggles with his spellings, so the TA spends time with him on that specifically, for example.

At the other primary school, we (the other mentors and I) were given a briefing on each of the children we mentor - some have experienced DV or homelessness or have been in care; others have SEN; still others have no diagnosis as such but seem to be struggling a little one way or the other (confidence is a real issue for some, others are newly arrived in the UK). From what I have seen, the teacher is aware of each child's needs (some learning, some not) and works to meet them as best he can with limited resources.

So, in my sample of two, I would not say that the teachers have low expectations of the pupils with SEN, but I would say that extra regard is given to thinking outside the box to find different ways to help them achieve their potential. And if some are taught separately then it's not happening in the (admittedly few) hours while I'm there.

From a teacher's point of view, I look at your second concern from anther other angle. A good teacher / member of support staff will focus on your child's behaviour over academic progress in the knowledge that if their behaviour improves, so will their learning. It is better to help him overcome defiant behaviour than stick your head in the sand, regardless of the label he ends up with.

Also, having taught primary for eight years I have never had a child flat out refuse to do activities. ODD sound like a distinct possibility. And as far as I understand, it does not have to be linked with any other condition. But remember ODD is normally temporary and essential just a phase.

I work in a school and many of our children are SEN. We have the same aspirations for them as we do for every other child however, once a child has a statement then we can be more accommodating of their difficulty to learn, listen, focus or behave and we can develop strategies to help them realise their full potential.
I personally would prefer it if my child had a diagnosed condition rather than struggling on not knowing what was wrong as then I could get them all the support possible.
This could quite simply be a clash of personalities between himself and the class teacher and it may settle down next year with a new teacher.
However, He is very young to be getting into these sort of difficulties as most children of this age like to fit in with their peers and usually enjoy pleasing their classroom teacher.

Thanks for the comments from teachers and those working in schools - all very interesting and food for thought. To repeat - my DS is not defiant all the time or all day on any particular day - he can go for a week and be the sweetest child - he can have a day of great behaviour but have one hour when he is defiant - it isn't constant, relentless defiance. He does not have ADHD or ASD.

Secondary school: What one secondary told me only yesterday. This must vary from school to school.

Kids with biggest behavioural SEN difficulties are taught in a separate small single nurture class for most subjects, because of how much they are struggling academically. Subjects they still share with broader student body are PE, catering, music & similar non-set topics. In a school of 1200 pupils (200/yr), which has a big SEN dept & is considered a specialist SEN centre, this nurture class was small per year. Maybe 12-18 or so pupils. So most the kids with SEN were out mixing with the main student body for all classes. Regular sets are supposed to be porous and overlapping in ability.

SEN lady I spoke to yesterday mentioned how her own DD was never on SEN register but was medicated due to ADD & is now expected As & A*s at A-levels. what that had to do with my son I don't know, but was a positive story-

Thanks for that lljkk. I'm a bit puzzled as to how a child medicated for ADD wasn't on an SEN register but I guess if the medication prevented her ADD from having any negative impact in the classroom then there was no need. Interesting, and thanks again for your continued contribution to the thread.

Our experience of secondary (with that hen's-teeth-rare thing, a full-time one-to-one statement) was that they pushed him far more than we would ever have done, and indeed encouraged his Oxbridge application last year. (He didn't get in, but that's sort of beside the point!)

My DS seemed more ODD than ASC, but ASC was his eventual diagnosis. Once the ASC was recognised and managed the ODD faded. He didn’t misbehave all the time either. He is still unexpectedly defiant when instructions are not presented to him in a way he understands and accepts, but that is ASC not ODD. But the thing is, whatever the underlying cause, if a child can’t behave in class (my DS couldn’t, until he got the right support) then he can’t achieve his academic potential there either.

And the school always had high academic expectations of my DS. Even when he was at his glorious worst behaviourally he loved learning; and at secondary school he was in top sets for all subjects even when he needed a one-to-one TA with him (he doesn’t now).

It is part of the teacher’s job to flag up concerns that may affect your DS’s education so that the help can be put in place as soon as possible, because it’s a slow process. But having said that, it’s a big jump from 3 months of bad behaviour to a trip to the GP. Assuming his behaviour is not so bad he's been excluded or under threat of exclusion, I’d be inclined to wait and see if a new school year brings improvement and if things aren’t very much better with a new teacher, say by autumn half term, then head for the GP.

What is difference between ASC & ASD?

It's the same thing - disorder vs condition.
People with autism prefer it to be referred to as a condition rather than a disorder.

My DD1 also has a Dx of ADHD and has been medicated for her entire academic career from age 6 so far, barring a couple of years in her teens when she decided to try without (and then SHE decided that wasn't working!)
Whether she is was on some SEN register I do not know.. she has always been excellent academically but her attention deficit and sometimes her behviour, made it difficult for her and her teachers (she was not 'naughty' per se but was often bored stupid and distracted others)

Her 'label' enabled teachers to try different strategies with her and perhaps exercise a little more patience.

As she is just about to finish her 4th year of medical school, still ADHD still medicated, I'm guessing it didn't lower anyone's expectations of her ability...

Look further into PDA. Yes, it is on the Autism Spectrum but, unless you've looked deeply into the presentation of ASD in children on the high functioning end of the spectrum who also have high levels of anxiety, you may well be dismissing the possibility of your child having it for the wrong reasons.

I would have denied flatly that my 12YO DD1 had Autism before CAMHS brought it up and as a possibility and I looked into it properly.