at end of tether with 5yo DD, disobedience, not listening (long, sorry)

[rhetorician]

OK, rather than prejudge, I am going to tell you what happened today.

DD1 and DD2 (2.5) and I go after school to the park to walk a friend's dog. Dog is young and lively and friend continually tells DD1 not to throw things at or near him, to approach him from the side and not the front. DD1 ignores this repeatedly, despite my reinforcing it. DD1 asks to go to playground, I say no. Shortly after she bolts - running quite some distance and not responding to "stop" or to her name. We leave straightaway and do not go to playground. I tell her off in the car on the way home, and once home I tell her (in consultation with DP) that there will be no TV today. She doesn't seem that bothered.

Later, I try to talk to her about what will happen next. I ask her to listen, which she does briefly, before continually fiddling, turning away etc. I explain very clearly and briefly that for the rest of the week I want her to listen, and to do as I ask, and then, if I am happy with how she has behaved, then she might be allowed to help friend walk dog at the end of the week. When I asked her to tell me what I had just said, she told me something totally different. Her response to breaking rules is to say "I didn't remember", and to us trying to explain stuff is "stop talking".

I am at my wits end - I spend half my life trying to catch her attention, and the other half trying to stop her doing something that she shouldn't. Needless to say, a lot of our interactions with her are negative.

I give this example as a concise version of how she is and how I respond (in this instance, calm, clear consequence, follow through, try to build towards better behaviour). But she just cannot grasp rules, boundaries, and certainly cannot apply them herself.

She is in Junior Infants (reception), and seemingly doing well there, although I suspect she is struggling socially. Academically she is fine, but I think not working anything like to her potential - she is easily distracted, tunes out, acts silly. But we are getting to the point where her behaviour, or inability to follow clear, basic rules is impacting on our capacity to do things as a family, and is certainly placing strain on other members of the family.

Perhaps your explanations are too long and the consequences or rewards too distant.
I would try immediate consequences and very short explanations. ie. if you do this to the dog again we will go home. If you run off you will have to hold my hand all the time. On the other hand if you are nice to the dog we can go to the park after. And then make sure you follow through, which it sounds like you do.

When you are telling her off; be at her level, make her look at you and keep it short. Also, think about your tone of voice- you need a no nonsense, brooks no argument voice.

view I really try to keep the explanations short. I find it really difficult to get her to stand still long enough and look at me to get anything across. Within seconds she is poking about, fiddling, looking around. I try to keep my voice very level, but I think she isn't very sensitive to such things - she often has to ask me when I am starting to lose it "are you cross?" "yes, DD, that is why I am shouting!" I think she doesn't care about consequences, or just cannot see the connection between behaviour and consequence.

There's a whole heap of other stuff, but today's events seemed to encapsulate them (although we didn't end up with full on kicking, screaming, spitting tantrum at least)

Well if she has to ask then start with.. I am cross with you because.. Hold her arms so she has to look at you and not fiddle.
On the other hand she may just be really good at winding you up.
If you're feeling brave, perhaps ask your friend with the dog ( out of DD's hearing of course or ask another friend you trust with well behaved children what she thinks?
It's very hard when our kids are winding us up to take a step back and see what is happening. Someone else may see it very clearly, but probably won't say unless asked because we all tend to get defensive if anyone criticises our parenting or our child.

tbh it's just part of an endless pattern of ignoring, not paying attention, not listening, messing around when we are trying to talk to her, not accepting adult authority. If I say "I am cross/disappointed" etc, she just tunes it out. Doesn't care.

view - I'm sorry - it must seem like I am just not listening to you!! I am. I am just trying to get over the fact that I really think that this is more than usual 5yo defiance, but I am not sure what it is, or how to handle it

Have school mentioned any possible SEN?

Whilst it may be just easy distraction, the complete lack of focus and not knowing when you are cross are possibly signs of a SEN.

They haven't, but I think that it what DP and I are starting to think about. I'm meeting her teacher next week, but I suspect she is quite compliant/passive at school.

Read How To Talk So Kids will Listen by Faber and Mazlish. It has lots of cartoons showing how children tune out, and how to get them listening. It will make you cry actually Just google it on Mumsnet.

I would say that holding a child's arm when you are talking to them and saying Listen is actually quite intimidating, as is forcing eye contact.

Another trick might be to warn her in advance that you are not going to have time to go to the playground, but that you will go another day (and try and come up with a specific day and time and stick to it) Keep telling her how helpful she is being with the dog, and how much you enjoy walking the dog with her help, and whilst empathising with her desire to run around, remind her in short succinct phrases that dog needs to be approached from certain angle. Try and make it a fun visual image for her, rather than a long winded instruction with complicated reasons. I remember my mother warning me to always stay away from the back legs of a horse in case he kicked me, it was a very visual image and I still stand well back from cars, horses and motorbikes in case they reverse into me!

The bolting problem is a familiar one, could you try and get her to run in a direction that you approve of instead, like a short race before you start. It is often a kind of reaction to feeling fed up and a bit all over the place, you might find you can channel it if you show approval of her running.

yes, i have to approach the discussion part of thing in quite a low key way, as it clearly makes her anxious. We have How To Talk, which I bought a couple of years ago when it didn't seem quite appropriate to age - but I must dig it out again, now that she is bigger.

We are just trying to hold firm, stay calm and follow through and then ride out the inevitable protests. She is a smart little girl, but I think she needs more direction, order and boundaries than we have been giving her . We are not naturally that directive either of us, and this seems fine for dd2 who just picks up what is needed and required, but not for dd1 who is all over the place without a clear framework. So lots for us to work on.

I feel for you. This sounds really frustrating. I have experienced similar behaviour but it was short lived. I mimiced my 5yr olds behaviour, so if I spoke to him and he ignored me. I did the same to him. He would get really frustrated and ask me why I wouldn't talk to him, I then use this as an opportunity to explain to him I was showing him how it felt to be ignored and how horrible it is to speak to someone that doesn't value what you have to say. Then I would talk about how he felt, apologise and tell him I love him and how when I'm asking him to do or not do something it was out of love.
I had to do this a few times before he got it, but now I can see he tries really hard to listen and follow instructions even though sometimes I can see he really doesn't want to.
I hope this perspective helps.

Yes, it does. I've tried this a couple of times today, a good day, illustrating that she chooses not to listen, rather thannot being able to!!