New here - beastly 3 year old - please help!

[dollfin]

Hello all,

Thanks for taking the time to read my post.

I have a gorgeous, affectionate, independent but feisty 3.5 year old boy. My DS is excellent with his language and seems very intelligent but he really struggles to control his emotions. He's also a huge attention seeker and loves to be completely in the centre of everything. For example if I am talking to my Mum or a friend, he will get directly in my line of sight, smile his best beguiling smile and completely talk over the other person. When asked to move, or I say 'Mummy's talking', he will huff, puff and pull faces like a 35 year old man (I think some ladies will know what I mean here, haha!)

Over the last few months I have been having real problems with him at nursery. He will not follow the routine that is set there and has a really clear idea of what he wants to do and when. When they ask him to do something (like wash his hands) he starts with being really badly behaved and screaming and shouting, or even as far (on a small number of occasions) hitting and flailing out with his arms and legs). Today has been the final straw when he decided to spit at a member of the nursery staff because they asked him to sit ' on the naughty vinyl' and calm down.

The thing is, he is not a nasty child, he's kind and generous and so loving. I just find at the nursery he is a complete demon. Thats not to say he can't be difficult sometimes at home but I am getting to the point where I dread my phone ringing in case it is the nursery and he is being difficult again.

On the flip side, until he has reached the pre-school room he was the angel child. The staff were always secretly saying that he was their favourite and he was always the child sitting on the nursery nurse laps when I went to collect him. Attention seeking again!!

I don't know what to do... I need some help in understanding whether this is normal and if not, what I can do about it. I like to think of myself as a strong, independent woman and this situation is making me feel upset and weak. I never thought I would be someone who had a badly behaved child and it almost feels like its me being told off everytime I get a call from the nursery manager.

What do you think fellow Mums? x

Hi. Went through something similar with my DD. Poor you it is exhausting. Similar story-bright and bubbly but would emit shrill scream if upset/ told to sit on carpet for story or other kids tried to take her toy. It got to the point where the playgroup leader kept saying she thought DD had ASD. I disagreed but felt obliged to go through a referral and the consultant confirmed just a normal little girl who likes her own way (not that I would cave in but others would).
No advice was offered but I tried to give her more autonomy so she could choose what to eat from a reasonable selection, select bedtime book, what to wear. also introduced reward system with a sticker chart and later a marble jar but had to explain what behaviour I liked and it resolved by the time she started school. I don't think any of us like to be told what to do all the time!
I often wondered if it was me and DH that were responsible by not recognising the transition from baby to artful toddler and rushing to her if she cried. Memories are a bit hazy now cos she is 13!
Anyway there is light at the end of the tunnel. Try and remember all his lovely points when you are feeling frustrated. Hope this helps

Hi Scarlett, thanks for your reply. That's a bit how I am being made to feel as well, I even asked the nursery leader the other day "are you suggesting that you feel there is something wrong with him?". She was really quick to say no but I do feel like they are singling him out. He has always been bright, ever since he was a baby he's done everything before the expected milestones. He doesn't go to school until next September but he's been put in the room for the last year with the children who are going to school this year. It's like he is always frustrated, yet if you spend time with him away from the nursery, like a home, he transforms into a lively, chatty, interested in everything little boy.

I feel terrible for leaving him there all day when I know that for some reason he isn't settled and happy. When he's been naughty and I go and collect him, his eyes are glazed with tiredness and he's got red cheeks with the effort of being so stroppy.

At home, I struggle to get him to listen sometimes, I have to bend down and say things very firmly to him. Even sometimes when I do that he will say "Yes but Mummy, I want to do this instead'. If you look at his body language he so obviously wants his own way more than anything. When he wants something he'll be the most charming little thing you've ever met. He's my baby and I don't like saying it but he can be really manipulative and if you don't know him well enough, or you aren't strong enough, he'll walk all over whoever looks after him. To be honest you're right, he is exhausting at times...

It's hard to know how to shape him, how to encourage him to be more aware of his behaviour and stop feeling like he is the most important thing in thw world. I don't want him to lose his character or make him sad by stopping him being who he is but I just want him to be a pleasant child (at least most of the time, I know they are all devils sometimes)

Anyway, this is a long rambly reply but thanks for answering, it's nice to talk. I don't have too many mummy friends that would understand. x

Oh Dollfin it sounds like you are having a hard time and need to get some fun back. I do understand- I had other mums staring and rolling their eyes and I used to be taking my DD out of the room because she had thrown a strop and I would wish that she was compliant and sitting their meekly like the others!
I can remember one time I was out of the room at playgroup and heard her crying. As I walked back in a mum just shrugged her shoulders and when I went behind the climbing frame there was another child snatching all the toys off DD! Annoying! Anyway please don't feel bad. You are doing your best and nobody should judge because they all have their moments!
I am just thinking is he happy at this nursery? Does he ever come out happy? Is it worth looking somewhere else? They really should be able to cope with his behaviour or work through some strategies with you.
Do you think talking to your health visitor might help?
If you decide it is the right place for him then I would try the rewards scheme in liason with the nursery and say to your DS that each time he manages to do what he is told he will get a sticker/ marble in jar and when he reaches 10 (or whatever number is not too difficult for him to attain) he may choose a treat. I found it worked for me. My SIL told me her DD was so good she didn't need a marble jar-Grrr! However her behaviour was only corrected if it affected the adults IYSWIM! Even now I feel SIL and BIL disapprove of my DD because she is very sensitive, That could be a whole other thread..
Anyway my point is you know your DS best. You know his good points.Maybe you could write those down in a journal to remind yourself when you are feeling a bit wobbly. Be strong. x

Any other mums out there who can reassure OP?

I have organised for him to start at a lovely pre-school in September, he had a settling in day earlier this week and the staff there are all qualified teachers and older than the young girls who work in his current nursery.

I don't think he's overly happy there, he enjoys it some days but if you were to give him the option he'd rather stay with me at home. He has never slept well there so he's always been tired. He used to be with a childminder part time until he was 2 and only nursery on 3 days but since I sent him full time the problem has occurred and doesn't really seem to be getting any better. It's even got to the point where I have asked my Dad to have him today as I dread sending him to the nursery. When I went in yesterday they had report forms all over the desk saying what he had done wrong and I know it shouldn't but it makes me feel totally awful. They don't see when he's tired, they try to discipline him at totally inappropriate times when they are never going to be able to reason with him. The really upsetting thing is that I don't have any other option, I've got a really busy job and there is no option of taking the time off. The 4 months until he starts at the new place seems like an eternity.

Just heard from my Dad though and apparently he's happy as larry today, been good as gold and really nice.Perhaps you're right and this nursery just doesn't suit him and his personality. It seems to me that they expect all the kids to be one dimensional cardboard cut-outs, or clones, when in fact they are all little people with as different personalities as we all have. I'm not trying to defend him, I just wish they would see him as I do.

I'm going to try the marble jar, he would like that and I think it might encourage him to think about what he's doing. Not least because he loves marbles :)

I know exactly what you mean about the correction of behaviour if it impacts the parents.... !! I don't like to say it but it's perhaps a bit lazy to be like that, doesn't teach the little ones much!

Thank you Scarlett, your support is much appreciated x

I am glad you have a plan Dollfin. No need to thank me- there were times when I felt near to tears and doubted myself as a parent. I had nobody to help out. Mum died years ago, dad was ageing at the time. My dad even said when DD was 2 that she was not going to be very nice cos she screamed and cried when she let go of her balloon! Think he had started early dementia in retrospect but he changed his mind later and loved having her read to him which she did not enjoy doing but did cos she loved her grandpa.
In fact although she occasionally throws a teenage strop (rarely and we don't give any mileage to it), she has turned out to be very careing-teachers have commented on how lovely she is-sometimes wish she was less so cos she has been bullied but getting better at handling it. Fortunately during the difficult stages I always managed to meet at least one other parent who could appreciate her finer points and make me feel better so don't let anybody make you feel bad about your DS or your parenting skills- there is no room for smugness in this job!
I hope you will post back with progress X

Hi there

Sorry I don't mean to barge in on your conversation but here's just a thought....can you be positive that staff handle the children in the best possible way in the nursery? In other words, could it be more down to them, than to him?

The reason I say this is because my 3 yr old DD currently attends a lovely pre-school playgroup where she has been extremely happy, and I know it's a well run calm environment because parents do rota shifts and so I've spent a few mornings there helping out. But we have moved a little further away and I went to check out a well-known and highly-subscribed pre-school closer to our new house, and immediately upon entering the building I sensed things were not well - there seemed to be quite a few kids crying loudly, the person in charge was flustered, I heard her give a very raised voice ultimatum to one child (you either go and sit on that chair or I will....thankfully I didn't hear what she proposed to do!), and when she walked over to talk to me she pretty much dragged a little boy by his wrist. She was very friendly when talking to me but then, I'm a reasonable adult sometimes at least. In a nutshell, the staff did not seem to be coping with the kids, the atmosphere was far from calm or kind, and the kids seemed frazzled. I feel that even a well behaved child would behave differently in such a high-tension environment, with adults seemingly not in control. Now, you wouldn't necessarily know this about a place unless you turned up unexpectedly (I turned up unexpectedly to enquire about a place for my daughter, which very quickly I realised we didn't want after all).

I am not making excuses for your son and I'm sure things are never black and white, but sometimes the grown ups don't bring out the best in children, particularly if they're bright and independent (the children, I mean...). I hope this makes some sort of sense.

quite a similar story here - have seen marked deterioration in DD's behaviour since moving up to preschool room. She was 3 in March. I know how you feel but you're not a failure! in my case i have no concerns whatsoever about the nursery. I think it is hard for a three yr old - they have become leader of the pack at a time they are very sensitive and becoming very aware of their own desires. then they move up a room and are the youngest again, it's higher pace and more knackering, and frankly overwhelming.DD also always says she doesn't want to go but always enjoys it. she recently fell out with, and bit, her best friend, she never bit anyone before... but I am sure it will get better in the next few months as she finds her feet and stops feeling so overwhelmed. she has only recently learned the names of a lot of her new friends so she is definitely only just finding her way.

Oh gosh, your little boy sounds exactly like my little 3 year old grandson who now changes from Jekyll to Hyde in a nano second.
The trouble with nursery/ school is that they only really 'accept' one sort of child and one middle of the road behaviour. They expect children to listen, conform and follow the rules every time and they will break the spirit of the child who doesn't 'obey'.
At home you can accommodate your DS, you can mark allowances fir him, he can probably spend the whole day doing things he enjoys doing, he can be stimulated and can rest whenever he is tired. At nursery this totally changes. He has to do things when he is told to and how he is told to do it and that's hard for a strong willed child to accept.
The trouble is, they have so many children so rules have to be rigid and the children who are in full time childcare are getting younger and younger and it must be quite tough on them.
Make sure he follows rules at home, such as washing hands, sitting quietly at times etc so that he knows that there are rules that have to be observed. Don't let him just wash his hands when HE decides to do it, he has to do It when YOU say.
Most schools and even nurseries are under ridiculous pressure from the endless government targets that are set. Staff are exhausted, everyone is stressed and fun is now almost a no-no as all anyone cares about are meeting the targets or else the school will not do well in Ofsted inspection.
I think your DS is probably bored at pre school and is finding that the more his behaviour deteriorates then the more he gets told off and the cycle perpetuates. Ask pre school to sit down with you and work out a plan of action so that you are both working together for a joint goal. I hope it all works out ok eventually.

Hi there so glad I found this thead I'm having the same problem with my little boy who has just turned 4! He is so loving and caring but can turn so easily now a days, I started to get calls from nursery saying he has smacked a teacher or a child and that he lacks in concentration....at one point I was so scared they would single him out as they were talking about putting him on a 'special needs' program if his behaviour didn't improve, I use to worry my self sick thinking of ways I could make things better but in the end I have been speaking to his teachers regularly and they say he has good days where he walks up to his teacher and rubs her back and asks if she ok and is really loving and happy then days where he could smack someone or just won't listen to what he is told trouble is now he won't listen to anyone and if there's a hint of firmness in your voice or he knows he's in trouble he will go into a melt down and scream and he will storm off and won't let me speak at all
Also warnings of the thinking spot will not work and he's become very stubborn but doing some research and plotting his good days and bad I'm now in a position where I'm trying to get him back into a strick routine as the teachers have picked up on he dosent like change at all he will ask all kinds of questions if something is moved in class and even down to the tiniest of things like he teacher wearing a different pair of coloured tights!!!....as recently I've started to go back to full time work so his nans have to pick him up from nursery some of the week so as he has got older I started to give him abit more lee way in his routine and I'm now pulling it in tighter as teachers think he my respond better to everything being the same ect tea time, bath time, bed time....also the past few months he hasn't been sleeping the best and is getting up 3-4 times in the night and is then wide awake at 530 in the morning so again teachers say this all could be contributing to his behaviour this takes a lot of hard work and even now I haven't cracked it but I will keep on this road but please let me no how u get on xxx

I don't have much advice but this stands out from your post. If he is struggling to control his emotions, I don't think 'sit on the naughty vinyl until you calm down' is going to help.

Oh thank god. My DS is almost 3.5 and EXACTLY THE SAME. I have never shouted at him, I used to work with children with behaviour problems and thought I had all the tricks in the book. They don't work in the long term with him. I know he is having a hard time with handling his emotions and hates going to nursery (has also been in the pre-school room since last Sept when he joined due to being bright). I am moving him to a pre-school attached to a school in September in a bid to change things.

He isn't naughty at nursery (he reserves that for me) but is a completely different child.

Last night I broke down and cried in front of him. I couldn't help it. I am a LP and having to deal with his misbehaviour all the time got to me, I have had a constant headache since yesterday morning too because of it.

I don't know what else to do other than stick to the routine and try and help him handle his emotions in some way.

I think that they go through a testosterone surge around this time so maybe this is the reason?