Help! No control over 3 yr old and 4.5 yr old...

[tinfoilhat]

I'll try and give as much info as possible, I am desperate for some help with our situation.
My DD will soon be 3 and my DS is 4.5. I am a SAHM, DH works full-time.
For the past few months I have felt like I am gradually losing any authority with my DC's and the past month or so has got even worse. We have moments of them doing as they are told but generally it feels like they basically ignore me. I can ask them to do something or ask a question and it's like I'm not even there. DD in particular is getting cheekier and cheekier and just says no to everything and laughs if she does something naughty. We used the 'naughty mat' mostly but not so often lately as it just didn't seem to be a deterrent. The 1-2-3 works well, but the past few weeks I seem to have to use it every time I want them to do something,so I'm worried it will lose it's effectiveness and I'll be completely stuffed!
Unfortunately I just end up getting more and more frustrated and end up shouting, really shouting, at them, which I'm so ashamed of. This scared them a couple of times (oh the guilt..) but lately they just laugh if I shout. They speak about not liking it 'when Mummy gets cross' and I've apologised and explained it's because I get so frustrated when they don't listen to me, and I'll try my best not to shout if they try their best to do as they're told, but it's immediately forgotten by them.
Their behaviour at mealtimes is getting worse and worse and I've been having to pick and choose daily activities based on how well I'll be able to cope if they run off and won't listen to me.
DH has lost it the past few nights and said this is totally unacceptable, they're walking all over me and we've got to do something about it, which to him means more shouting and sending to their room etc as punishment, which I'm just not comfortable with.
I don't want to be a shouty, miserable parent all the time, which is what I'm turning into.
I have always tried to explain on their terms what we're doing and what's happening (e.g. after this tv programme has finished we're going to get ready and go out to so-and-so) and to try and say yes when I can rather than 'no' all the time so that when I do say 'no' it's more effective. (Ha ha!)
They are wonderful, loving children, we have lots of cuddles and they are very affectionate and caring. They always want me to be the one who reads to them at night, which DH says is because they know I'm a pushover and will cuddle them afterwards till they settle, but I don't think that's true.
I worry that I will gradually lose more and more control - if I can't deal with them now, what the hell will it be like 5 years from now?
I had no respect for my Mum and I'm terrified that this is history repeating itself.
We have no family support nearby and only a little about an hour away.
The DC's have no behaviour issues at all at nursery, which they attend a couple of mornings a week.
Sorry this is long, wanted to give as much info as possible. Any advice gratefully received, thank you.

No real advice but just wanted to let you know I feel the same with DS's 5.5 & 3. I hate being the shouty parent which it feels like I end up trying to get us all out of the door for the school run.

I have had some success with sticker charts with DS1 but it seems to all go downhill again after a while when we stop.....

A friend has had success with a do it first time smiley face chart, sad face if have to be reminded then counting them up at the end of the day & making it a game to get a high score.

I do think positive things help more than just 1,2,3 & time outs etc for negative behaviour

I think you need to find some good child rearing books on amazon. Look at the reviews. Buy the book

Are you giving them enough attention? They are in effect gaining your attention through negative behaviour. Can you try a more playful approach? So to get them out the door or changed pretend they are your dogs, award invisible bones. Or pretend you are an aeroplane and fly them to the car. You need them to want to be on the right side of you.

My DS (nearly 4) was very similar after he had just turned three. He is very stubborn and strong willed so a stricter approach worked for us. Now bad behaviour has real consequences like taking a toy away, or walking out of the room if he is messing about at bedtime. He had to learn that there are limits! Also communication is key but sounds like you're already doing this. Making him switch off cbeebies himself after several warnings rather than us switching it off which used to make him really cross. Trying to do things playfully - but this doesn't always work. Spending quality time together. Having fulfilled days, trying to avoid boredom. I am sure you're already doing a lot of these things. I found he improved at about 3.5 but he is still often naughty. At least now he is easier to reason with. I'm sure it's tough with two, I feel for you (my second is a baby so still at the cute and lovely stage)

Thank you hazbaz it's good to know I'm not alone! And reward charts were our next step...fingers crossed.
You are right though, I've got into a terrible habit of focusing on the negative, which is what you have also raised Loverofcheese, thank you. I had thought that I was giving great praise when they do respond, but in hindsight maybe I'm not. I find it so difficult to keep calm and remember to make things into a game more often. I have actually brought Playful Parenting recently but haven't started it yet - I should make this a priority.
You're right, I need them to want to be on the right side of me, they don't seem to give a toss at the moment, I seem to be just a joke to them..

Tinfoil you are doing a fine job.

Firstly don't take their behaviour personally. They are children. They are full of hormones and impulses. At each stage they will push their boundaries. This is natural. Just hang in there.

Secondly reward the good behaviour but be consistent when you say no. Don't make threats your not willing or able to carry out. And if you tell them the consequence of their behaviour will be X then make sure X happens should that do it again, no matter what scene they may cause.

But pick your battles. If their behaviour puts them in danger then deal with it imidiately. Everything else take a deep breath and think are they being deliberately naughty or just kids?

You say they are happy and well behaved at nursery and that they are loving and affectionate. So please take a moment to realise that you make your children feel secure and loved. You are doing a fine job.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks imme, you've raised another good point there - we've been doing less activities the past few weeks because I just couldn't cope with them running off or misbehaving when in an unfamiliar environment, but perhaps this has in turn made them worse as they're bored and now it's catch22. The younger one does seem to set the older one off too, so perhaps a case of getting much stricter whilst her mischievous phase (hopefully!) passes.
Two is certainly tough, but so worthwhile when they're playing together or declaring how much they love each other!

Oh thank you so much Ninjacat, you had me welling-up there! They are so wonderful (obviously!) and we often get comments on how articulate and imaginative they are, that's why I'm so frustrated right now. I want to do so many things and go to lots of places with them but they're like wild-things lately!
But you're absolutely right, the pushing boundaries and testing is natural and I mustn't take it personally.
I try very hard to pick my battles, but I may have been too laid back previously and now maybe this is the consequence - I think that's certainly my DH's feeling, but then I think he expects too much of them for their ages. Perhaps they are picking up on this conflict even...
Thank you again.

tinfoilhat it sounds totally normal! But I think that you need more help/time off, and that your DH is not supporting you as a parent. He comes in, criticises everything, tries a different approach, hence children who challenge rules and don't listen ( I've a very strong willed dd, so I sympathise). You and he need to agree an approach, stick to it, and back each other up

I've been struggling a bit with my toddler so I'm doing "the incredible years" course at my local children's centre - lots of good stuff about positive parenting. I'm finding it really useful and I think her behaviour is already improving (3 weeks in). Perhaps there's a children's centre near you offering the same course? (Creche also available for ours.)
There's a real focus on child led play and how important it is to spend time with your child(ren) when they're playing, giving them your full attention (and joining in if that's what they want, but not directing the play at all). Just ten minutes each day can help, apparently. Initially I wondered how the focus on play would help me as I thought I needed to know about setting and enforcing limits, but I am a complete convert.
I've also got a copy of "how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk" - one chapter in and it seems like good stuff.

You sound like you put yourself under a lot of pressure for things to be perfect.

It's hard work being a parent and there's a lot of trial and error involved.

Days out with small children are only ever perfect in heinsight. At the time they are full of little Power struggles, safety fears and exhaustion. But that is not what your kids remember as they get older. They will remember the new experiences they were offered. The feel of the Sand. The smell of the museum.

Have a look around you when your out and about and see how other children are behaving. The compliant ones are pretty rare.

Make sure you are being realistic about what you expect from them and have a chat with DH and see if you can find a compromise.

Sleep tight.

Thanks rhetorician - it certainly doesn't help the situation when he comes in and does this, with already tired and emotional children at that time of day. I love the fact that DD is so strong willed and I'm so keen not to quash that by hollering at her all the time. Time for a proper talk with DH on all of this, not just when it's all come to a head.

That's interesting happygelflingabout the play aspect - I thought that I did play with them a lot but perhaps it's the 1-2-1 aspect that needs more attention. They obviously vie for my attention sometimes and so I tend to always play together as the 3 of us, I'll try giving more 1-2-1 each day and see how that effects things. I've also got that book! Very good.. I do always try to acknowledge their feelings and put a name to them, but perhaps I need to reread and refresh my memory again. Thank you.

Aah Ninjacat, I always seem to be the only parent whose children are running off whilst I'm hollering at them to come back! Maybe I need to use the pushchair again with DD until we have gotten through this particular stage. I think perhaps I am being a little unrealistic, I know DH definitely is when we're out and about, he gets very frustrated very quickly. We've been mixing with some new families lately and I haven't seen anyone raise their voice at all with their children, they all seem so well behaved which has made me question even more why I keep resorting to shouting, even though it's not effective. I've certainly got lots to think about here, and some different approaches to try.. Thank you again for your wise words.

Hope things settle for you soon.

Maybe get DH to write a list of what qualities he'd like to see in them when they are grown. I expect unquestioning obedience won't be at the top ;-)

Haha! Do you know, that's one of our 'things' - that we don't want them to grow up and follow the herd, we want them to always ask questions and follow their hearts - I bizarrely didn't connect that directly to how they behave now and I'll bet DH hasn't either..!
Today is better already thank you, I've not shouted at all and managed to get through a supermarket run (done without them if I can!) and a docs appt without any major meltdowns, progress indeed! I can see light...!
Thanks again.

good news tinfoilhat - sometimes it's easy to get dragged down by the bad days

I'd thoroughly recommend this book www.amazon.co.uk/Positive-Discipline-Jane-Nelson/dp/0345487672/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400258328&sr=8-1&keywords=positive+discipline

We we struggling more and more with dd - using 123 and the naughty step all the time and seeing it work less and less. And she was becoming cheeky and secretive.

I bought a few books in desperation and that one in particular has turned us around. It's a no punishment approach, which I was truly dubious about, but honestly, her behavior is 100% better, and our relationship is better too.

Really pleased to hear you've had a good day :-)

Thank you ItMustBe - I really like the idea of a no punishment approach. I've nearly finished reading Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn and whilst much of it makes sense, it doesn't feel completely right.

I shouldn't have spoken too soon! I massively failed this afternoon and ending up really shouting again about why couldn't they do as they're told. (blush) I feel so shit about it, so ashamed, they don't deserve this.
DH and I are each going to take a DC out separately over the weekend so that they've got some 1-2-1 time with both of us. It'll just be DD and me tomorrow and then I'll take DS out on Sunday. Then a new week to start afresh, plus lots of reading to do!

I'm trying very hard not to panic that this can't be turned around. It's good to know that others have managed so I know we'll get there too.

Smiley fail! Meant to stick an 'embarrassed' one in.....

Hope the 1-2-1 time is fun.
Here's a video of a "watch wait and wonder" approach: vimeo.com/6016065 - the link was given out at the parenting course I mentioned. The approach recommended in the course isn't quite as silent as in the video; they recommend commenting on what your child is doing (e.g. "you've picked up the green one") to make clear that they have your full attention, but you try to avoid asking "closed" questions (e.g. "what colour is that one?") which might sound like you're testing the child. Open questions are ok apparently, but you need to give the child lots of time (ten seconds, which feels like loads) to answer.

I liked the ideas in unconditional parenting, but found it totally unrealistic in practice. I think the positive discipline one is much more workable.

Thank you happy, that was really interesting. It doesn't feel right to be completely silent so commenting on what they're doing makes much more sense. It's difficult to get that time with each of them on their own but I'm looking at how i can fit it in.
We've introduced a reward chart and DS is responding well to it, but DD still has a 'do what you want I just don't care' attitude to it! It's early days though so hopefully she'll catch on in the next few weeks.
I'm just looking into 'mindfulness' too in the hope it will help me become calmer and more patient.

It's just this age and it's utterly exhausting. It seems to improve when they hit five although they're still sent silly by other kids (or maybe that's just an only child thing)

A book I really like is "When your kids push your buttons" which helps you to deal with your own responses rather than telling you how to control their behaviour.

I really am not keen on Unconditional Parenting. I do like and agree with a lot of the theory but I think that in the main I latched onto it because I liked the no punishment idea and while it would be lovely to have that kind of atmosphere I've just totally lost faith in it. Look at what your general style is currently, because from my own experience and reading on here it seems that it can be really helpful to take some advice from "the other side" so to speak, ie, if gentle parenting usually appeals to you and authoritative methods seem harsh or scary, it probably means you need to get a bit more comfortable with being authoritative when it's merited (this was totally me.) OTOH if you find the idea of gentle parenting wishy washy and feel it's the most important thing to be in charge/in control, it can help to try out some of the gentle parenting type things, because sometimes it's the control they're lashing out against. But I think it depends where you're coming from in the beginning, I reckon most people lean one way or the other.

I do like the gentle parenting approach to boundary setting and this is what I use most of the time. Basically you decide the boundary and then physically prevent them from crossing it, using only as much force as is necessary, and being as kind and understanding about it as possible. Consistency is important but the consistent part is WHERE the boundary is, and not HOW it's enforced. Also, something I got from "When your kids push your buttons" is about handing over responsibility to them for things. Instead of stressing about how they're ungrateful and expect you to run around after them and they're not cleaning up their own mess, just inform them that there is a mess and they need to clean it up before a certain time. (If necessary I do withold the next thing until it's cleaned up, like a game or pudding or reading or whatever - it doesn't even have to be something hugely fun, it's just reinforcing the idea of them doing their own thing before they can go on to do something else.)

Then I use a really almost token sanction for things which you can't physically enforce. I can't prevent rudeness and ignoring it didn't help (ignoring it doesn't stop it anyway). I had a bit of a try at physically preventing violence but that just made DS more determined (although it had worked very well when he was younger) - those both earn a screen ban.