Year 5 maths ability

[Stressedtothehilt]

Hi all am looking for general opinions on year 5 kids maths abilities. I keep being told dds maths is fine but I really don't think it is. She was in a very underperforming failing school until the end of year 2 when we moved her to a different school. New school originally said she was behind on maths, the average, now apparently above average! However, I have my serious doubts. She is good with pie charts and graphs and things and is able to do adding and subtracting of 3 and 4 digit numbers if they are set out in traditional sum format. And she knows when to carry over the 1 etc. but the things she struggles with are :

Dd cannot quickly recall her number bonds to 10 and 20 without taking a great deal of time.

Does not know any times tables except counting in 2s, 5s and 10s.

Couldn't answer when asked what 18 - 17 was! She started to count backwards on her fingers before the question being repeated and she still had to think. Took about 45 secs before she finally got the answer.

Cannot multiply two digit numbers/long multiplication nor long division

Can't do percentages or fractions

Struggles a lot with maths word questions like Man X has ten sweets and man Z has twenty sweets how many sweets altogether etc.

So how is she doing???? I found some 10+ maths assessments and she could only easily answer the normal + or ~ sum type questions and she really struggled with the rest. I seem to be forever in school about something and don't want to make a mountain out of it. I just KNOW she isn't above average like they're telling me! She is above average in literacy but def not in maths!!

It sounds as if the basics are missing. Ds is P3 in Scotland (so Y2). He doesn't add/subtract beyond 2 digit numbers. He has to think very carefully about carrying the one or can make a mistake. He only has a very vague idea of pie charts, graphs etc. However he is secure with number bonds, knows his 2, 3, 5 and 10 x tables and knew 18-17 immediately and also your question about the sweets. He is in the top group for maths but I think the whole group are, more or less, at this stage.

It might be worth sitting down with her teacher and working out what she doesn't know and getting some help to fill in the missing bits.

Poor girl. She is lost. Talk to her teacher.

Can you afford a tutor to start again so that she can start to feel confident again?

It's such a terrible feeling, to be lost like that.

Thanks for your responses. I think diffoculties started at the first failing school and thry didnt teach her the basics correctly as you stated. Then she's moved to a new school and skipped ahead and is lesrning new stuff but is missing whole chunks of easy stuff! It's a bloody nightmare. I have no idea where to start unpicking this nightmare. What makes it worse is that she has mild adhd so I am not sure if she is not retaining things or simply hasnt been taught! Have just spoke with another parent at same school and their daughter isnt taught times tables either!

I don't know my times tables now. I'm very good at maths but only if I write it down in front of me mental arithmetic - no way.

I used to teach maths to a year five class and the first thing I would say to you is don't panic!
You have listed a lot of things at your daughter can do that are really important. She doesn't sound lost at all. The most important thing in maths is understanding the number system - if your daughter can carry out the operations you describe, and work out mental calculations - even if it takes her 45 seconds - she clearly has good understanding and good basic numeracy.
Much of what you describe her being unable to do relies on memorising - remembering number facts and timetables by heart. Funnily enough, these are the easy bits. I bet your daughter could learn all her timetables and number bonds in a matter of weeks. A child lacking the fundamental understanding your daughter clearly has of numbers would find it far harder to get up to speed.
As for fractions, decimals etc - it may be that they haven't reached that yet in class. Or the way they are being taught is not how you would recognise fractions. Either way, don't worry because again it doesn't take long to pick these up once you have a good understanding.
And word problems are difficult for nearly all children - the bit of the maths curriculum most teacher dread because it is like pulling teeth!
If you want to know objectively where your daughter comes in her maths ability can you not find out what national curriculum level she is working at? It's been a few years since I worked in England but I think average for end of year 6 is level 4. So if, at this stage in year five, she is deemed to be at 3b, 3c, 4a, 4b, 4c or even higher, then she is indeed "average" or "above average".
On the whole I would recommend trying to relax about it and make sure she doesn't pick up on your anxiety or she may start to feel like she is failing. And that is when you really are in trouble.

Thanks auntie thats helpful too

You have had several useful replies, but I'll add below stuff that I send to people wanting maths help. May be less relevant in DD case, but some bits might be relevant:

QUOTE:

Practical things are best for grasping number concepts - bricks, Lego, beads, counters, money, shapes, weights, measuring, cooking.

Do adding, taking away, multiplication (repeated addition), division (sharing), using REAL OBJECTS as just 'numbers' can be too abstract for some children.

Number Bonds of Ten forms the basis of much maths work, so try to learn them. Using Lego or something similar, use a LOT of bricks (of just TWO colours, if you have enough) lay them out so the pattern can be seen of one colour INCREASING while the other colour DECREASES. Lay them down, or build up like steps.

So:

ten of one colour none of other
nine of one colour one of other
eight of one colour two of other
seven of one colour three of other

etc, etc

then of course, the sides are equal at 5 and 5; after which the colours 'swap over' as to increasing/decreasing.

To learn TABLES, do them in groups that have a relationship, thus:

x2, x4, x8

x3, x6, x12

5 and 10 are easy

7 and 9 are rather harder.

Starting with TWO times TABLE, I always say: "Imagine the class is lining up in pairs; each child will have a partner, if there is an EVEN number in the class. If one child is left without a partner, then the number is ODD, because an odd one is left out."

Use Lego bricks again, lay them out in a column of 2 wide to learn 2x table. Go half way down the column, and move half the bricks up, so that now the column is 4 bricks wide. That gives the start of 4x table.

Then do similar things with 3x and 6x.

With 5x, try and count in 'fives', and notice the relationship with 'ten' - they will alternate, ending in 5 then 10.

It is important to try and UNDERSTAND the relationships between numbers, and not just learn them 'by rote'.

I am sorry it seems complicated trying to explain these concepts, but using Lego or counters should make understanding easier.

An inexpensive solar powered calculator (no battery to run out!) can help learn tables by 'repeated addition'. So: enter 2+2 and press = to give 4. KEEP PRESSING = and it should add on 2 each time, giving 2 times table.

There are good web sites, which can be fun to use :

www.ictgames.com/

www.resources.woodlands-junior.kent.sch.uk/maths/index.html

UNQUOTE