End of tether

[OnionRing]

DD1 is 4.5 and at school. She is utterly defiant with both me and DH. She won't dress herself, get bathed, undressed, do teeth, get coat and shoes on without a massive battle. She has been like this for a long time to varying degrees but it is dreadful at the moment.

Against my better judgement I keep screaming at her and losing my temper and physically carrying her to the bathroom etc. We have several meltdowns a day.

She is fine at school and fairly quiet but at home she is a nightmare and I now dread mealtimes, bathtime, bedtime and the mornings. I have been in tears this morning as I am so upset that we can't seem to parent her effectively.

I know it is mine and DHs fault. He is always making vows about no more shouting and then an hour later she will have provoked him into a rage again. I am usually the calmer one but have found recently I don't have the patience reserves. DD2 is 9 months and a poor sleeper and takes up a lot of my time.

I know I need strategies to get our home life under control but just don't know where to start. At the moment I feel like going to the GP and getting antidepressants. Can anyone suggest anything more constructive? A book? Or online resource?

Many thanks in advance.

Feel for you dont really have any advise though, im in similer situation dd1 just comeing up for 5 and still wont dress herself , have to nag her eat breakfast wash brush teeth etc at school shes now a little angel im contemplating just taking her to school in pjs (school uniform in bag) hopeing it would embarrise her not sure it would though. 15mounth baby now starting to copy behavior so ill be watch your thread for advice to sorry got nothing construtive for you.

Do go to the gp; you maybe do and maybe don't need anti depressants but you do need to get advice about other forms of help through health visitors, children and young people's services etc.
Support helps us all, you've done your best by yourselves and it's brilliant that you accept that it is you and your partner who need to change, so many folk blame the child :-)
Please don't feel ashamed asking for help, your gp will see lots of people experiencing similar difficulties.
You'll be amazed at how quickly you will be able to turn things around once you get the right support.
Good luck x

I've sent her to school today with unfinished homework to try and shame her but she won't be bothered.

It's awful isn't it? I'm worried DD2 will think it's ok to speak to me like this too. It's horrible.

The way she is behaving is a symptom.

It could be a physical reason, have you had her hearing and eyes checked recently. A friend of mine had a very naughty little boy, they checked his hearing and he was nearly deaf, hearing aids were given, situation resolves, boy is fine.

It might be a school reason, have you investigated how your DC is at school, have you spoken to other mums. Regardless of the near fairy tale beliefs of some parents, school is shit for about 50% of children.

It and is possibly a stress reaction to the trouble you seem to be having at home, if this is the case then I would suggest getting some sort of help for yourselves.

Shaming and embarrassing a child, who is 5 is not appropriate, they dont have the level of understanding, in fact shaming anyone is frankly awful.

Homework at 5 is nonsense.

I hope you work though these issues.

BTW I am not immune to all these issues either. lol.

this too will pass.

Calmer Easier Happier Parenting is a very good book. I totally understand how you can get into that rut of child not doing as they are told, child winding you up, parent losing the plot and shouting, major meltdown etc. You need some strategies to help you break that cycle. One thing you could try is positive reinforcement where you praise every little thing she does that isn't bad / misbehaving. The advice I read said not to give empty praise such as "ooh well done, that's brilliant!" all the time, but to just comment on and acknowledge good behaviour, however small, eg. "I see you took your plate through to the kitchen, that was helpful of you." You feel a bit of a nutter constantly commenting on every little thing, but children respond well to receiving praise, and getting good feedback from not throwing her cutlery at the wall or not having a meltdown on getting into the bath, will encourage her to do the same behaviour again, to get the positive response from you. Equally some children just want a reaction from you good or bad, and you yelling at her for not getting dressed is certainly providing her with a reaction. Try the "I'm so bored with this" tactic, where you give the impression that her refusing to eat her breakfast is just so boring. "Okay fine" as you remove her plate, rather than cajoling and getting cross and insisting she eat something "or you'll be starving at school".

It's really hard to chill out yourself, when these things really wind you up, and you just want her to behave nicely and do as she is told. Take it one day at a time. If you can manage a whole day of not shouting, and managing to appear blase rather than in a fit of rage, then pour yourself a nice glass of wine in the evening and give yourself a pat on the back. Equally, don't beat yourself up if you mess up. We all mess up. Kids can be utterly maddening.

elderberri I know it's not appropriate and I'm not proud of it. I ran out of time this morning as her behaviour was so awful so I made her take it unfinished.
I had her hearing checked last month and she has some mild hearing loss but not enough to impact at school or at home.

Thanks mummyx2, I can't remember the last time we had a day without shouting. I don't know how to deal with bad behaviour when it DOES matter, ie we'll be late for school etc. I can't act bored then. I will order the book you recommend. I have 'How to speak do kids listen' and found that useful but it didn't deal with this behaviour.

Most likely a response to the new member of the family? Initially a baby is quite fun for a young girl but now the thing is here to stay and taking up your time she is probably feeling major resentment and this behaviour is a way of getting your attention, albeit the wrong kind of attention. I have no solutions-I'm a shouter much to my shame but my kids are now older. Maybe doing things just with her alone and one parent on a regular basis so she still feels important, reward charts (never worked for me but some people love them), giving her some responsibility with the baby-you need her help with the baby as she is such a big girl etc etc. Good luck.

Some of these I think she is young to do on her own or without major supervision - eg teeth and bath, do you mean you ask her to do these on her own or that she won't do them with you?

DS took ages to get into the swing of getting dressed and would still let me do it for him if he had the chance (he's nearly six). Have you tried reward charts? 1, 2, 3 etc?

Can you pick you battles? I don't care if mine don't wear a coat, if they get cold they can lump it! I was ready to let DS go to school in his jammies (with his uniform secretly in the car!) if he kept pushing the not getting dressed.

Do you need to get up earlier so there is more time to do it all? Maybe she just moves at a different pace?

A glacial pace! No I mean when I want her to come and let me help her with face washing, bath etc. it's not me expecting too much. I say 'come on, let's go and get washed' and she immediately shouts 'no' and then it all kicks off.

Reward charts didn't work as she didn't seem to care.

Its frushtrating isnt it , sometimes there are no excuses for thier behaviour, you help them , theres nothing bothering them at home or school,hearing is fine because youve had it cheaked , they have no shame and are not bothered by rewards , you ask them nicly to do something repeatedly and they only hear when you end up shouting. No one wants to shout at their children. There capable of achiveing somethings by them selfs but choose not to and they do understand. Calmer easier happier parenting sond like its worth a try, good luck onionring

Does she feel that dd2 is getting too much attention? Or that being babyish gets you attention? And do they really get homework at 4.5? Crikey!

Hi Al, I just don't know. She gets lots of attention but more from her dad than me at the moment. She seems to have a huge capacity for aggro and any little thing kicks it off.
I have spoken to DH and told him how I'm feeling and he thinks I'm overreacting but says that we do need to seriously work on being calm and modelling desired behaviours.

They get homework once a week in reception class and it's usually some sort of drawing / writing exercise. It's a bit ott in my opinion but I have to support the school and make her do it. She is expected to do reading every night as well which gets a bit much too.

Onion, getting a good night sleep might help you all be a little calmer. Does dd2 wake dd1? I might be inclined to tackle dd2's sleep first and then move on to your older dd. perhaps if she saw dd2 getting treated a little more firmly it would help?

Supernanny has good advice I find! Can prob find old programmes online and this is the programme's website:
www.supernanny.co.uk

We do the naughty step, on and off, works sometimes. And our basic approach is praising and rewarding good behaviour, giving and enforcing consequences for bad behaviour.

Mind you, our kids can still be massive pains in the bahookie so don't be listening to me!

I share your pain! I have twin girls and one is fine, mostly does what she's asked, generally well behaved reaching all the targets at school. The other is totally opposite. I should have named then yin and yang! I know all the parenting theories, have tried reward charts, removing toys, time outs, you name I've tried it! I should have known when she handed back the smartie I gave as a reward when potty training that this one was trouble! I am seriously starting to wonder if there is something wrong with her, I am constantly shouting and threatening and counting to 3 in a very angry voice! Thinking of going to gp for a chat,....

On the bright sideThe reading for reception doesn't usually mean they have to read, they should just get daily experience of reading, so bedtime story counts

I feel your pain and due to being constantly run down and sick we have gone back down the path of screaming with my very argumentative 4 DS. I found reading the Aha parenting site good. Sort of put me back on track last time.

Don't be too hard on yourself as very strong willed children are tricky at the best of times let alone when your tired.

I think lots of us can relate or have been in your spiralling predicament. When I say spiralling I mean it, because I've been there. Anger flares up the child goes (understandably) into defence and anger mode and a tantrum ensues. You as an adult feel enraged and so it spirals.I do sincerely admire your honesty and for that reason think you are on the right track.
I still have situations when the spiral begins. I generally can get myself out of it by putting myself in my child's position. What's it like to be woken up and told to hurry up, do this, do that etc I am not saying this to make you feel worse because I am sure you feel heartbroken already. But it helps me. We all feel so much better when we get a bit of praise. I don't mean vacuous non specific praise. Children,even small children can see through this.But praise for things which for a child are important. One of the best things I read was to show the child you are on their side: for example if the child has trouble dressing say 'how can we make this easier for you etc.
I have been on anti-depressants for another reason (health related) and at the time it helped me a lot. My problem was extremely serious. I took them for over two years. I haven't had them for about a year now.
My son is a regular boisterous 4 year old. He challenges me on lots and lots of things. Things are not always easy. Sometimes, not that often, I scream at him and when I do I feel dreadful. But generally speaking we have a loving accepting relationship. He gets lots of praise but as I said I give it for specific things.I hope that helps you,

I thought I'd update.

Me and DH have made a huge effort not to shout and to keep everything calm and there have been far fewer stand offs. It is really hard work but does seem to work.

We have explained a few rules to dd1 about some of the areas of conflict eg if she won't get undressed and into the bath then she will run out of time for bedtime stories. She messed around a lot last night so there was only time for one story, I stuck to my guns!

I have started saying to her when I pick her up at school that I have missed her all day and would like us to have a nice time until bedtime and speak nicely to each other. I've lavished her with praise for looking after her little sister, clearing up toys and so on and I've tried to ignore some of the less desirable behaviour rather than shout at her.

I have got everybody up half an hour earlier as it takes her half an hour to dress herself. I do hope this will speed up but I've multitasked by getting dd2 washed and dressed at the same time as well as making beds and sorting the washing (whilst she takes an eternity to fasten each button!)

So we have progress but it takes a lot of energy and teeth gritting from me and DH. I am also reinforcing the gains to him and praising him for keeping calm too!

And I forgot to say thanks for sharing your experiences. It's really helpful!