Some advice desperatly needed. We can't take much more.

[YellowFeathers]

This is going to be a long post but I would be so appreciative if at least one person would read it and offer some advice.
I'll start from the very begining and try and explain everything I can so that you can see the full picture.

Ok
Dd is 2 and a bit, she'll be 3 in October. We moved house at the end of June to a new area and a bigger place also baby no.2 is due in 2 weeks time.
So yes, alot is going on atm.

Now before we moved dd was what I would call a typical 2 year old. She started potty training in January of this year, come April she was out of nappies and using the toilet. A couple of weeks after this she had started to go on her own and before we moved was happily using her stool for the toilet to get to the sink, turn on the tap and wash her hands.
Since we've moved things in the toilet dept have gradually got worse. We've gone from occasionaly wetting herself sometimes pooing herself but not fully IYSWIM to flatly refusing to go to the toilet at all.
For the last 2 days now she is refusing to have a poo. You can tell she needs it (as I'm sure all parents do). You have to have an argument involving lots of crying, screaming and shouting to get her to go up. I had to sit with her for 15 mins the other day to persuade her to have a poo. This involved lots of "Come on squeeze it out", "you'll have a poorly tummy if you don't" etc etc.

The next problem is bedtimes although I think this does seem to be getting a bit better. She always had a lamp on and some music. For the last couple of weeks we were at the old house and up until last week she was listening to the same CD which was a mixture of kids songs. The first one being Old McDonald. When she went to bed we had a right old time of it as you can imagine happens with toddlers. The classic delaying tactics, "I need a glass of water", "read me a book" etc. She was then coming out of her room 2 mins after settling hysterical because she wanted Old Mcdonald on again. One night I'd even noticed that she'd gone into the bathroom, taken out her little stool and brought it into her room so she could reach the CD player to press the repeat button and I have no idea how she knew to do that!
This all came to head last week as she was waking up in the night screaming for it on and bedtimes were becoming unbearable.
Like I said this has calmed alot now and its alot easier for her to settle and it doesn't take as long.

Now dh and I think that she has some kind of anxiety about going upstairs. We've gone from a small 2 bed house with one of those open plan staircases to a 4 bed house with a huge upstairs hallway that you have to turn round a corner on to get to the bedrooms and bathroom.
We have asked her the best ways we possibly can to a 2 year old, to see why she is behaving like she is. The replies we have had our that she is scared of bees in her room? (there was once a small fly in her room) but I don't think for a minute that bothers her.
On Thursday I made a sticker chart for her which she loved. I put 3 boxes on it; bedtimes, going to the toilet and dinners. Thursday and Friday is full of stickers, Saturday has a few and yesterday has none at all. We told her that she could go out for the day as a treat if she was good and got lots of stickers and even after her bad day on Saturday we still took her to the local play farm. Maybe looking back now that wasn't such a great idea.

I have been so so upset about it. Partly down to frustration because I know she can do it and because I know its upsetting her and she obviously is struggling with a fear or anxiety of some sort and like all of you reading this, as a parent all you want to do is make it better for them isn't it?

So what else can we do?
I just cannot and won't more to the point, sit with her in the toilet anymore. In 2 weeks time I won't be able to anyway. We need to get back to her being ok with going on her own and it not being a problem.
This obsession with Old Mcdonald song, I mean is this quite normal to want to listen to a song constantly?

I must sound so dramatic but believe me it is so awful to have to cope with this day in day out.

Any advice will be graeful or words of wisdom, even humour, anything!
We're so desperate!

Hi YF - don't think I'm going to be much help, although lots of sympathy.

It was just one part of your post that struck a chord with me - about being frightened to go upstairs. I suddenly remembered that my brother was very frightened of going upstairs on his own. It turned out (some while later) that he thought that the tiger from the Frosties packet was going to come in through a window and take him away. I used to have to go up with him when he went to the loo and stay outside the door.

I also remember that I was firghtened by the pattern of the wallpaper in the bathroom.

Not sure if this is any help, although i guess it probably counts as something funny. Am just wondering if there is something that your dd is afraid of that you haven't been able to work out yet?

my friend was due with her second child and her first child started acting pretty much the same, not wanting to go to bed and saying he couldnt sleep alone etc and started wetting himself again.health visitor said it was because it was a cange of routine in his life and that he'd settle down in time.no guilt trip but how does she feel about the baby? could it be that she's reminding you that you're her daugther and that she's worried she'll be replaced? is she genuinely worried or is it the attention that she's craving for.
not trying to sound nasty etc, just thats what happened with my friends son.she tried involving him with all the baby stuff and laid on the bed with him when he fell asleep etc and just constantly reassured him that she loved him and wasnt far away etc and that he was her special son.(they had a girl after so it was easy for her to call him that and the daughter the special daughter)
good luck.let us know how it progresses.

I think it might be the combination of moving and a new baby on the way.
DD1 did someting similar just before and after dd2 was born.
We also hadn't been in this house long and then new baby arrived, she started wetting herself all the time after being dry for nearly a year.
tbh I ignored it as far as I could, just cleaned up and changed her clothes and left it at that.
Try to take the focus of the toilet situation and perhaps try to get her involved in helping prepare for the new baby, me and dd1 went shopping for a pressie for dd2 before she was born and helped me sort out baby clothes etc. She stoped wetting herself with about a month.

Can't help with the sleep thing as dd1 sleeps like a log.

Hope you have a better day

It sounds like she is expressing her anxiety about your house move - my sis moved house last year, and her DD was about the same age as yours. She had almost exactly the same problems as you, toilet training went to pot (excuse the BAD pun) and bedtimes became very difficult to say the least. It's the only way they can express themselves FORCEFULLY, and get back what they see as a element of control in their lives. You can't really expect a child as young as she is to be able to put a sort of non-straightforward emotion -iykwim -into words. I'm sorry I can't really offer solutions, it did settle down with my sis's DD eventually, just keep sticking to your normal routine as much as poss. There was also a sort of 'honeymoon period' of a few weeks AFTER they moved to the new house when her DD didn't seemed phased by it, but then it kicked in when she realised she wasn't going back to the old house, I think.
Although my sis didn't have the imminent arrival of another baby to contend with as well, it has to be said. I'm sorry you're having such a crap time, sounds trite to say it will get better, but it will. I'm sure someone else will have advice on the toilet training part of it, my DD is only 18months and I yet have that joy to come. xxx ps I think 2 is one of those ages when moving house causes most anxiety

Pps the listening to the Old Macdonald song over and over again is probably just a way of trying to comfort herself if it is a favourite song - I know I like to listen to favourite songs if I am upset ( in fact I regress to 2nd childhood and obssessively re-read all the Harry Potter books, but that another story )

Thanks for the replies

Lummox, I want to think that it is a fear of going upstairs because I think that this could be rectified in many ways but I'm just not totally convinced its that as shes normaly really good at telling you whats the matter. I know what you mean about the wallpaper though. Apparetly my dh used to be like that. He thought he had snakes on his walls, lol!

MALI, DD was told from day 1 we were having a baby and since her speech has come on alot since December shes constantly asking to cuddle her baby brother and hugging my bump. Looking at all the equipment.

Shes even had a choice of how her room was decorated. Picked a border and a colour paint and its full of all her usual things so nothing is out of the ordinary IYSWIM.

Yellow feathers, my advice to you as a mum of 5 (maybe soon to be 6!) is that you need:
Firstly to completely back off as far as the potty training is concerned. Put her back in nappies. Neither you nor your dd need the stress of this at the mo, certainly not with a new baby on the way. She will take herself back out when she is ready and won't be able to use it as an attention seeking device. So what if it's delayed by a little while, it won't make one jot of a differenc in the long scheme of things will it?
I personally think that she might be too young to really understand sticker charts. My dd2 is the same age as yours and I know that she would like the stickers but not really understand the idea of her behaviour and consequences that much.
Clearly most of her behaviour is down to anxiety of moving and the new baby. This could not be avoided and it will pass. You need to make as little fuss as possible, if she senses that you are anxious and tense she will react to that.
Instead of sticker charts I sometimes use a button pot. Everytime your child achieves the goal you have set you put a button in the pot and when the pot is full they can have a reward. The beauty of this method is that you can chose how large the pot is and how big the buttons are so you can fill up the pot more quickly if you need a more instant reward.
I've found that my children really like to hold the pot, it makes it somehow more real for them than sticker charts. We can count the buttons and they love to chose the button that will go in the pot.
Good luck. REMEMBER that childhood stages are very fleeting. What you think of as never ending misery will change and pass before your know it. I always remind myself that things ALWAYS change if ever I'm feeling that something is going to stay a certain way forever.

Also yellow feathers it doesn't matter how well prepared you think she is about the new baby. The very vague understanding and the reality are completely different. Cuddling a bump that demands no attention from you is an easy thing to do, she is still the centre of your world. It wiil be a shock for her when the baby needs attention from you and your have to tell your dd to wait. She will get over this though, in time. She will have her nose put out of joint. This doesn't always manifest itself at first. I know with some of mine I thought I'd got away with the old jealousy stuff. Youngest child semmed to be completly intrigued with new baby, loving, kind etc. I soon realised that it was more to do with the fact that they wanted to keep me happy and showing interest in the baby was a way of doing that. The jealousy and anxiety over being ousted from their position didn't manifest it self until months and months afterwards.

Awww thanks everyone

Kittywits we were thinking of nappies again (well dh's suggestion) but I wasn't too taken with it tbh but it could be a option. My worry is if I don't make a fuss and she just carries on wetting and pooing herself, will it end and will she juts think of it as the norm?

My concern is that it needs niping in the bud now because the attention she gets atm will not be there soon and how will this manifest in the long run? Will she hate the baby? Will she hate me? How will she cope?

yellow feathers, now what you need to think is "is she going to be wearing nappeies when she is at school, a teenager , an adult?" Really she isn't is she? You won't be nipping anything in the bud if you try and push things. You will be making things worse. Let her go back in nappies for a while, it will be the best thing for both of you. Why try and push you both down the hardest road to follow? So what if she's back in nappies? Who's judging?

She won't hate you, she might not like the baby. One thing is for certain, you will all cope because you have to. Whenever I had a new one I used to imagine our family were all sitting on a long bench. We were all happy with our places. Then a new one came along and we all had to shuffle up and make room. There might be some grumbling and complainging and it might be a bit of a squash, but we would all get usd to our new positions. It is always happens that way and it's always alright in the end!

Sorry for delay in replying hd to walk the dog

Its not the judging, I can cope with that anyway
Its getting back out of them again when I know how well she has done. Will it be a total nightmare and back to square 1 or will she pick it up again?
The other thing is that she starts pre-school in September so to go back in nappies would be a nightmare for that too.

You have a lot of your plate Yfeathers.
Its your call if you want to continue with the potty training. The fact that you have a baby due in 2 weeks means that it will be more difficult for you to give it 100%. Your newborn will need at lot of your attention and when you are feeding you can't just stop the feed/winding etc to go help DD in the toilet. Maybe see how you go this week and if no improvement go back to nappies?

I'm having my fair share of difficulties with DS (2.9) so I know where you are coming from. The difference is that we don't have a newborn on the way. Its hard enough potty training DS1 with DS2(16mths) needing attention to.

The house move definately seems to have affected your DD. Its a lot for a lo to deal with, bless her.

As regards the new babys imminent arrival - have you tried getting a new doll with clothes,nappy, bottle, potty etc. Maybe DD could then take care of 'her baby' when you are taking care of yours. It may make her feel more involved once the new baby is born and may help to make your life a little bit easier.

Don't know what to say about the going upstairs problem. My DS was afraid of 'the bee in his room' for a while but it soon wore off. Then it was 'the tiger'. They just seem to go through phases all the time. Sorry not much help. Good Luck.

Poor you YF. I remember having lots of advice about making my ds as independent as possible before his sister arrived - in the event he regressed a bit too and it all worked out OK in the end. His behaviour all round really deteriorated before dd was born and then miraculously improved as soon as she arrived - I think it was the stress on him of knowing a change was coming but not really understanding what it means. As soon as it was a reality he was fine.

Agree with Kittywits about the nappies - my ds was potty training when I had a newborn (led by him, I really tried to stall it) and it was a nightmare - you don't need the extra stress of an urgent bottom wiping call when you're in the middle of feeding.

If there's one bit of advice I wish I had been given it is really ease up on your older child when the new baby arrives, baby her a lot, make sure you accept any help on offer to have the new baby so you can spend time together. She will look alarmingly grown up when you compare her to the new baby and the danger is you expect too much. She's still tiny and as you say there's been a lot of change in her life.

Thanks

Reece, my Mil has bought her a pushchair and a new doll although she already has a Tiny Tears that gets a bit of attention so that might help. My mum is putting together a box of allsorts to keep her amused, lots of things she can do herself.
I've just got her a Thomas Aquadraw as I know she'll love that.

So come 2 weeks time it'll be like xmas for her

Puddle, I'm with you on the reality thing. It must be a weird concept for her to grasp I guess atm, well it must be for any young child. A baby being in mummys tummy and seeing all the baby equipment but no baby!
I suppose everything else on top is alot to handle.

Sounds like you have some really good family support there which is great.

You also seem to have everything in order for the new arrival so try not to stress too much over the potty training. (who am I to preach?) Once you are settled at home with the new baby you will be able to relax a bit more and then look at the training again.

Don't forget how much newborns can sleep during the day.... Ummm Bliss.

Well today she has had a poo but its taken alot of encouraging and if I'm honest too much. It just tires me out.
It took 3 trips up and down with me screeching at the bottom of the stairs to get her to go.

will her pre school take her in nappies if you put her back in them? most around here will take them in pull ups if they know that there's been a problem.im sure that once she's in pre school she'll quickly go back to knickers as she'll want to be like the other children there and not wear nappies.its only a temporary hitch.i wouldnt worry too much and put her back in them.she'll decide when shes ready to use the toilet again, probably sooner than you think.my son was only 13 months when i had my second. we gave him a doll ( yes he's a boy) and bought baby nappies etc and when i fed my son he'd feed his doll too etc so he felt joined in and not left out.

i have to admit that when i has my second son my first stayed around my parents for a couple of days.when he came home and saw te baby there he ignored my and wouldnt come and give me a cuddle or anything.he was like that for a few days, didnt want alot of attention off me but went to daddy and nanny etc.it broke my heart but the midwfe said thats normal and not to worry too much.i felt so unloved by him but it was just his way of coping.i helped him hold the baby and help with him etc and he soon adjusted.i kept telling him how much of a special big brother he was.he even went back to drinking out of bottles for a few weeks as he adjusted to the baby being there.
it will all sort itself out.dont worry.wat shes doing is normal.dont let things stress you and keep relaxed and enjoy the first weeks of life with your new baby.

MALI, I think the pre-school will take her in nappies as when we went to visit a few weeks ago the manager asked if she was toilet/potty trained or still in nappies.
Well at the time dd wasn't as bad with it as she is now and we just told them that she was toilet trained.
Thinking about it now, I think going there might be the boost she needs. Seeing all the other children use them like you said. They have those teeny tiny kids loo's and sinks so it will be alot easier for her to manage.

Yesterday was a bit better. The sticker chart seemed to get its appeal back and after some prompting she did go to the loo. Although I must mention that dh and I have an en-suite in our bedroom which is at the very top of the stairs, the main bathroom is around the corner of the hallway so we had put her toilet seat and stool in our bathroom. It must ahve helped a bit but you can still see the reluctance.
Anyway, she asked for a sticker when she had been and then later yesterday afternoon she did wet herself but I just took the calm approach, didn't lose it and gave her a pair of new pants. I think she seemed a bit shocked I didn't go mad, lol!

Bedtime was a bit backwards though, which was a shame because the night before was really good but a few seconds after leaving the room she settled. Although still up at 6:30!

I'll see what today brings. It should be interesting

Thanks for all your advice its really helping. I'm still open to suggestions and more help and support!

ok not read other messages, so sorry if repeat. I would go cold turkey with the cd player. I would simplify bedtime routine to wee, teeth, story, bed. I always give mine an anyway up cup of water in bed, as I often need a drink in the night, and they do too. This doesn't leak & it would solve her delaying tactics eg asking for more drink etc. My ds went through a phase of wanting loads of toys inbed. more and more. If one fell out it would be a drama, got worse & worse. eventually we went cold turkey with the toys and the protest was definitely easier & shorter lived than the toy fuss.

re potty training, I would probably encourage her to make the decision to go back to nappies. you've got enough with new baby due & the last thing you want is to be bellowing at her to do a poo/ mopping up wee and poo with a new born. But I would try and get it to be her decision, rather than you just back tracking her which would be demoralising.

also re landing, have you got a night light on it? Or try a couple of her cuddly toys to stand guard?

And sticker chart, well, she's a similar age to my ds & it def wouldn't mean much to him, so I personally wouldn't bother, but I accept all kids are different.

good luck, and try not to worry. hope some of the ideas help

Thanks Monkey.
The Cd player went last week and hasn't been back since. She did ask for it for a few nights but hasn't bothered since. Dh said last night that we may as well keep it out.

I did think about keeping a beaker up there for water but I thought it would be another attachment IYKWIM. She'll have to have one every bedtime. Does it cause you a problem if there isn't one?
I know what you mean about the teddies and stuff, we have the same with books. Has to have books on her bed. Doesn't look at them very often but they have to be there.

well, we always make sure there is one, and part of the routine is re filling it. for them tho it's not an attachment thing, just thirst. So far only ds 1 & 2 have it tho. But I always have to go to bed with bottle of water, so it's just the norm in our house.

good news about cd player. these things always seem to turn out easier to ditch than we fear they will (like dummy, thumb etc) (my ds aged 5, who was a heavy thumb sucker, and getting worse, with a little encouragement & a wee treat gave up over night. I'd been wishing he'd stop for ages but thought it was impossible & he did it just like that. )

Do they actually drink in the night then?

I think this is what niggles me deep down is that all dds life, as short as it has been, has always accepted change really really well. Ok albeit just the dummy, getting rid of bottles, you know the usual stuff. She even had a blanket that I'd tied a knot in so she could rub the label and that was conviscated without a murmour!

It does sound as if she is nervous of going upstairs by herself to the toilet. Could you go with her for a few days to reassure her? I know you won't be able to do it with a newborn but just a few days now may help her feel better about it.

Even just being upstairs at the same time may help.

my experience with toilets and a newborn - my dd was 2yr 4 mths when ds arrived, when she was 2 we started to introduce her to the toilet but no pressure to perform was implied, we invited her friends around to play all of which were attempting toilet too, she seemed to want to copy them and be interested, but that was that it wasn't a constant thing, when ds arrived she transformed, she would just take herself off to the loo, no accidents nothing, she was brilliant, she wanted to prove that she was grown up and impress me, she did this all by herself and the praise I gave her each time spurred her on to do even more, within a week of being dry in the day she was completely dry at night.

I know sometimes it can go the other way, but for my dd it didn't, she was brilliant. If she is anything like me dd now, any pressure to perform will have the adverse affect, even I don't like being told what to do, I would say relax about it, even ask her if she want to go back into nappies, but I do understand the anxiety around trying to prepare for a new baby and wanting to get it sorted before it arrives.