How would you tackle out of control toddler bedtime?

[Liveinthepresent]

DD is 2.9 and for the past several months her bedtime has become more and more challenging.
She has always been a fab sleeper unlike the sleep dodging 7month old DS BFing on my lap and once she is asleep she normally sleeps 11-12 hours straight.
The problem is that despite being tired and ready for bed at 7 once the 'routine' is over she has got into the habit of shouting repeatedly for me or DH and using every 'trick in the book' to keep us in with her - cuddle, water, nappy change, lost cuddly toy, book to read, what's that noise - if we say no she quickly escalates into full on wall of sound wailing.
Herein lies the heart of the problem I expect - as with DS being such a poor sleeper we have tried to keep her quiet so she doesn't disturb him and now she is used to the merry go round each evening.
She does still nap in the day and we don't think it's a routine change needed - she is often staggering about with tiredness. Some nights she doesn't drop off for more than two hours and we end up in a worsening cycle of overtiredness which can result in night waking from nightmares a and generally makes her less fun to be with.
Last night was so bad we ended up leaving her to cry as we couldn't see any alternative but obviously this is a horrible way for us all to end the day.
We are lucky that she hasn't yet climbed out of her cot but I know we will soon enough need to move her into a bed and would love to have cracked a calmer bedtime before she can wander to make her demands!
So what would you do - any toddler taming tactics?
Sorry it was a bit long!

Oh I sympathise, it's not easy especially with trying not to disturb your DS too.

I can't remember where I got this routine from but I've used it with great success with all 3 of my DC's at various times!

Basically put to bed as normal. first time they call you go in, give them a cuddle and put them back to bed and tell them nicely 'bedtime now darling' and leave them. Second time they call you go in, put them gently back to bed and a bit firmer voice 'bedtime now'. Each subsequent time just put back to bed, no talking to them, no eye contact.

I realise your DD isn't getting out of bed now that I've just reread! I would lie her back down in her cot and tuck her in instead of putting her back to bed.

You'll probably get a few different ideas to try but give each one a good try before you discount it, your DD might get worse before she gets better as she'll fight the new routine

Good luck

I would try dropping her daytime nap for a few days and see if it makes a difference. You could maybe also try a sticker chart for being good a t bed time - she is good every night for a week and then gets a small toy or something T the weekend.

I'd accept that 7pm bed time is the stuff of dreams and start the whole rigamarole 30 minutes later.

I've done the same as the first reply with DD, now 4. About 2.5 was the worst point for us tbh. Go in, tuck in, kiss, say goodnight and leave. The second time, tuck in, goodnight, leave. Then just tuck in, say nothing, and repeat until they zonk. Do not engage, do not give in to whatever the demand is, and it may well take several evenings. So make sure they aren't ill when you start, and stick with it. I think I first saw it on Supernanny many years ago, and it was used with an older child, but it did work. You aren't abandoning them, leaving them to cry, or risking a genuine issue as you will go and check, but it also doesn't reward the behaviour. Then if you want to use a sticker chart the next morning when they have got it right, and a reward at the end of the week, feel free, but not all younger children really grasp the idea of a reward chart.

Good luck, it's hard I know. Is there another room DS can sleep in while you crack this? Even if only for a few nights, until she settles and you can take him up? X

Ooh thanks for replies - am encouraged that others have dealt with similar. It's so easy to beat yourself up when you realise it has spiralled out of control because you have been feeding it but I guess it's quite common.
It has got to a point where by the time she is asleep I am often dealing with DS first wake up. It's been a really tough few weeks as he has been ill too.
My gut feel is that it's just an ingrained habit rather than a nap,or timing issue. Later bed / no nap haven't helped previously so I think we will have to give the firm but fair no engaging a go first and see if we can crack it.
Nowhere else to put DS but I am building a wall of white noise apps !

I think you need to try a week of no naps. It's catch 22 at the moment. She only needs a daytime nap because she didn't have a full nights sleep the night before.

I had the same problem with my three year old, sound sleeper her whole life and it seemed to come out of nowhere
As you said she tried every trick in the book as did I, bedtime routine, story, sticker charts, rapid return
In the end we decided to ignore her one night, it took ten mins for her to get bored and go back to bed
Now we do this every night and she's starting to learn we won't go running when she cries
Most parents can tell when their child is crying for a reason as opposed to crying for attention
Situation is slightly different as my little one is in a bed and able to get out and walk downstairs if she chooses
Good luck nothing worse than tired mummy!

Do not engage did not work for us if we went upstairs she would scream louder when we left and putting her back into bed she was out again before I'd even turned around! It's trial and error every child is different experiment with things for about a week at a time and see what gets the best results

I agree with the others who say the nap is likely to be the issue. At this age, while they still need a nap, expecting them to go to sleep at 7pm is, sadly, unrealistic. If you still feel she needs that daytime sleep then your best option is to accept she needs a later bedtime, until such a time she is ready to start dropping her nap.

We did this with ds & moved bedtime to 8pm (he napped for 2hrs from 1.30-2pm) & he settled much more quickly & was asleep earlier than he was when we put him to bed at 7, because he was properly tired by then so we avoided all the runaround. Hth.x

Thanks for the further replies will definitely look at the timings and nap again if we don't crack it soon. It doesn't seem to make any difference when we have tried it but maybe that's because we haven't given it long enough.
I will admit I was hoping the nap might stay a little longer as we have only just started to get an hour each day with both DC asleep - heaven!
I think this bit will be taken out of our hands as she is now in a nursery room where lots of others have dropped the nap.
laurenmarie thanks your approach made me realise how stubborn my DD - no way will she give up that easily!!