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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

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Original poster

Ds1 is violent to his little brother. This isn't normal, is it?

24 replies

fisil · 27/07/2006 20:12

Ds1 is (was?) the kind of angel child that you would curse other mums for having. You know, he'd sit down at song time and join in all the songs, he'd always hold my hand and never wander off. If you said no, he'd respond.

He is still a good boy in a lot of ways, but recently he has been really nasty to his little brother. Some things have changed - I have stopped work to be home with them, they have left day care nursery which they both loved, Ds1 has started afternoon state nursery, which he loves. Ds2 has started walking and has a few words, but is basically still in a world of his own.

Ds1 knocks ds2 over, hits him, grabs him, sits on him, traps him, steps/sits on his hand - and then when we tell him to stop he just carries on. He goes ont he naughty step, repents, apologises. Does it again.

We take things away and put them in a box. He finds something else to play with and still terrorises Ds2.

We talk about nice ways to play with ds2. He joins in the conversation, and then does it again.

We praise him for playing nicely with ds2, and he immediately goes and hurts him.

He complains about bigger boys hurting him and we talk through how ds2 must feel the same. Yes, I know that empathy in a 3 1/2 old is a tall order, but we really are desperate here.

Ds2 has developed a new word - "go away" - he only uses it on ds1, and it really shouldn't be one of his first words anyway.

Heeeellllllpppp!

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Original poster

fisil · 27/07/2006 20:17

BTW ds1 is 3 1/2 and ds2 is nearly 15 months.

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Original poster

fisil · 27/07/2006 20:33

please help!

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Jazzi · 27/07/2006 20:38

I have 2 ds's and the elder behaves in much the same way - can they play nicely together, or is it always as you described??

NotQuiteCockney · 27/07/2006 20:39

This is pretty normal, I'd say.

Posey · 27/07/2006 20:40

Really sorry, I'm no help as you seem to do everything I could think of. Except maybe, do you ignore him when he's done wrong? Tell him no but then ignore him and carry on having a really jolly time with ds2. Am just trying to think what sort of things I've seen on parenting programmes.
And wanted to bump this for you.

Feistybird · 27/07/2006 20:40

fisil, I have DDs and tbh we didn't really have this - although saw it lots in my DNs - they're a good deal older now (altho still kids) and still very competetitive and always scrapping - but love eachother dearly (but you only get sight of this if one is away for a prolonged period of time, from the other).

Original poster

fisil · 27/07/2006 20:44

NQC - does that mean you've seen this too?

I just can't bear ds1 being so nasty and ds2 crying.

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NotQuiteCockney · 27/07/2006 21:38

Sorry was so terse. Yes, I think this is very very normal. I'm not sure what I'd do. Do you manage to get some one-to-one time with DS1, maybe while DS2 is asleep or otherwise busy? I'd work hard at rewarding good behaviour and try to ignore the bad stuff. Maybe picking up DS2 and walking off with him, talking about avoiding people who are mean?

It's horrible, but I've seen this sort of behaviour in other siblings. My two are a bit further apart in age, so I thankfully never had to deal with this.

fistfullofnappies · 27/07/2006 22:09

Isnt 3.5 about when boys discover the joys of fighting? I seem to remember the 3 yr olds scuffling at playgroup and the little girls watching in horror.
My ds1 used to be like this with his brother. Fortunately, there is about the same age gap as yours, and ds2 is big for his age, so they are about the same weight now, and I just let them get on with it. They fight like anything, but are very close.

fistfullofnappies · 27/07/2006 22:10

Sorry, meant to add - for several years, I had to keep separating them as ds1 was near to murdering smaller ds2, but I always warned him that ds2 would catch up in size, and lo and behold it is now so.

Original poster

fisil · 27/07/2006 22:14

Yes, we keep telling him that fistfull. I am all for siblings fighting (it was a staple part of my childhood!), but it is so one sided.

I guess we'll just keep on.

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unicorn · 27/07/2006 22:19

sibling rivalry - you can't beat it.

I think it is a fairly normal (albeit infuriating) part of development which will probably come and go throughout their years of growing up together.
He is doing it because he can - he realises he has some power over a smaller person and at this point in his life he is getting pleasure from it.
I guess it is the usual stuff.. you have to ignore as much as you can, punish when appropriate, and give lots of praise whenever he plays nicely with his brother.
and remember the mantra....
This will pass.

ocd · 27/07/2006 22:22

no
mine dotn fight

its nto normal

notsoladyjess · 27/07/2006 22:32

your message exactly explained what is happening in my house at the moment. ds1 used to be so nice to ds1 until this month.
ds1 is 2.8yrs and ds2 is just 1. ds1 on the verge of walking and ds1 has staretd kicking him, sitting on him, putting a cushion on his head and then sitting on him, punching, etc.
we try to naughty step him and praise good behaviour. kind of hoping it will start to work soon as it is getting to be really unenjoyable. i stopped work over a month ago and now am at home 4 days a week with boys, was not sure if that was something to do with it. reckon it is just normal stuff though.
sorry no pearls of wisdom, just empathy. good luck.

ChocFudgeCake · 27/07/2006 22:47

My 23 month-old can be a nightmare to my 9 month-old. Both boys. But the little one started to pull the other's hair when sitting in the tandem . I think it is getting better, less pushing and biting. Now the toddler holds baby's hands and sings "row your boat". By all means I understand that it is a pain to have to be ALWAYS there because the moment you turn your back DS1 sits on DS2 . I tell the toddler "He is YOUR baby also! Be gentle"
Just be patient.

MummyPig · 27/07/2006 23:11

my ds1 was awful to his little brother for absolutely ages, and it was very hard to deal with (on all levels, emotional, physical, whatever). They are pretty inseparable nowadays, although they still have 'disputes' about things and either one can be pretty rough with their brother.

The ways to deal with it are probably all things you're aware of already - trying to make sure you're rewarding the good behaviour instead of responding to bad behaviour, trying to avoid getting into situations when they can misbehave, trying to acknowledge the older child's feelings - he may have been an angel beforehand but it's extremely normal to feel jealous of a new sibling - trying to get him to realise how his little brother feels, and removing him from the room if it gets too much. It's all so easy to say and harder to put into practice, though.

I do remember it being very difficult to get ds1 to realise that hurting his brother was just not acceptable. I think there was the normal sibling jealousy going on, but also another thing was that ds1 was definitely looking forward to having a playmate rather than this dependent, fairly immobile baby. Things improved when ds2 could move round more and interact with ds1 more. (I remember feeling there was a breakthrough when ds2 was about 10 months old, but I'm not sure why.) I tried to concentrate on all the positive parenting stuff, and for a while giving ds1 stickers for doing anything good was a good way for him to realise I still appreciated him, and to remind me to give him positive attention rather than just telling him off for doing bad things. This was an idea from a book called 'The Parenting Puzzle', after I went to a talk done by one of the authors.

I would also recommend the books 'Siblings without Rivalry' by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish, and 'Raising Happy Children' by Jan Parker and Jan Stimpson. They are both very down-to-earth, realistic books that help you deal with difficult situations with your children.

hope some of that helps

Tortington · 27/07/2006 23:21

a firm "NO" sufficed for me. i also included ds1 in the child rearing stuff so he could be useful and helpful. children love o be industrious i find.

but you can do all this fairy arse pants reward stuff for some things but not for this IMO. its dangerous and dangerous things shouldnt be put into the fairy arse catagory.

if your son doesn't pick up his toys for instance - fairy arse catagory reward when he does - but this is just "no, its not acceptable. stop immediatley"

ocd · 28/07/2006 16:40

agree with cust
not fighting shoudul be t he norm not an exceptional part of behaviour

TooTicky · 28/07/2006 16:51

custardo and ocd, all very well saying it, but what if firm "no" doesn't work? I'm no fairy arse (nice phrase!) when it comes to fighting, but they still do it!

southeastastra · 28/07/2006 16:52

my kids fight im at the end of my tether with it

mumandlovingit · 28/07/2006 16:55

my children are 13 months apart in age.when ds2 was born ds1 was fine, as soon as ds2 started walking and talking and taking an interest in ds1's toys etc thats when all hell let loose!!
i'd deliberatly make them play separatly if they couldnt play together nicely.came to a point when ds1 grew out of it and wanted ds2 to play with the toys with him and join in,.he understood by then that he had to play nicely for that to happen.tey still bicker and have their little squabbles as all children do but i think all children go through that together.i think its a normal step for them to take.as long as the behaviour isnt being condoned then they will stop it in the end.good luck

dinosaur · 28/07/2006 17:01

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

MummyPig · 29/07/2006 00:30

i'm not saying that hurting each other should be the norm, and I completely agree that you should be firm about it being unacceptable. But just being firm isn't going to stop it happening, that's why you have to look behind the actions to try and work out what's going on in their heads. Otherwise it will just carry on.

That's why I recommended the books, as I have found them very helpful but I'm obviously not good at summarising them in a mumsnet message. Hopefully they will help someone who's in a similar situation to the one I found myself in - and I thought fsil's situation rang bells.

Incidentally, one of the reasons my ds1's behaviour was very bad was because he was being bullied at nursery. I remember feeling awful when I realised what had been going on, and that he was essentially 'acting out' stuff with ds2. So if your ds1 complains about other children, there may be something behind that as well. (I hope not, but just something more to think about.)

Original poster

fisil · 29/07/2006 20:02

thank you for all of your advice. I will keep an eye/ear out to see if anything else is upsetting ds1. He says daily (several times) how sad he is that it is the school holidays, and I believe him, so I hope it is the case that he is missing being with children his age who play games with him, rather than because there is any hurting or bullying going on.

We observed the way the hurting happens, and it tends to be ds1 "kalumpfing" ds2 or striking out in frustration because ds2 won't be the "man in the shop sitting in the corner with the umbrella" or whatever ds1 has cast him as. DP had a man to man chat and ds1 insisted that he loved ds2 and wanted to play with him. So they developed a method of "quick cuddle" which is a non-painful way of hugging and showing love!

Will keep on!

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