3yo nightmare or something else? Is this normal?

[nefelibata]

I've been running this over and over in my mind for 2 weeks now and need some outside perspectives. Background is that I split with DS's dad when he was 17mo, overnight contact began about 10 months ago, the stories started about 3-4 months later. Our baby DS2 (now 19mo) goes overnight also.

DS1 talks about being scared of going to the 'pengin shop' at daddy's house. I assumed a nightmare of some kind, maybe scary shadows or a dressing gown that looks funny on the back of the door, that kind of thing. Reassured him and didn't think too much of it.

2 weeks ago he came back upset, agressive (bit DS2 very hard, totally out of character) tearful and clingy. He had red marks all down his arms and scratches on his shoulders, but they were very generic - he has eczema and it could easily have been a reaction to a washing powder. I hope it was anyway. I was really bothered by how he was and didn't get angry with him, but after calming him down and putting DS2 to bed, I asked DS1 what was worrying him.

He said this:
DS - the only thing that worries me is the penguin shop mummy.
Me - where is the penguin shop honey?
DS - Down a long country lane like at daddy's house mummy.
Me - Ok, what do the penguins look like?
DS - Big and scary (hunched over)
Me - And what do they do that makes you worried?
DS - They hold me down and hurt me and burn me at night.
Me - (long pause out of shock). Ok, are you worried about them here?
DS - No they don't come here mummy, I'm never worried about them here.

WTF? What would you make of that? I can't work out what to think or how to broach it with his dad without sounding like I'm making some awful accusation (and he takes offence easily, so it's not easy to talk full stop). His dad has also complained that he has bedwetting accidents every time he stays over (2 nights a month) but he is dry at home. I know nightmares and bedwetting are par for the course at 3yo, but would you be bothered by something so graphic coming out of your toddlers mouth? It just seems so bizarre. Add in the marks, the agressiveness and the general out of character behaviour and I don't know if I should address it or if I'm getting my knickers in a twist.

I need some outside POV's.

thanks

Gosh. I don't know. All I know is that my 3 year old says things like "remember when our house burned down, mummy" even though she's never been anywhere near a house fire or even seen one in real life. Just imaginative. So you're right to not jump immediately to any conclusions.

Just came across this on unanswered messages and didn't want to leave you hanging as I have been in a similar situation. When my eldest DD was 3 - in fact the week of her 3rd birthday - she was clearly trying to tell me something but she just didn't have the vocabulary - I asked her to do some drawings and to be honest that was not much help - but over the space of a week something else came out every day; a little detail etc. As it turned out there was something very wrong going on at the childminders and social services became involved. A very black time in our lives, which she doesn't remember now, 10 years on.

Mind you, she also told me at various times that aliens had landed on the roof and that voices were telling her that I was evil. Children do come out with some bizarre things but you are right to be wary under the circumstances, so I'd say make it clear you are happy to talk if anything is worrying him etc. At the time I had advice from the NSPCC helpline, you don't have to give your name etc. - they can give you some perspective on what is and isn't normal for 3 year olds. Hope it turns out to be nothing, I don't like the sound of the penguin shop either

That would worry me too (I have a 3yr old DD) as it does sound like he's genuinely worried about the penguin shop.

From an outsiders point of view, and knowing what an active imagination my own DD has I'm wondering if there is a toy or book at your ex's place that's freaked him out? Or even (clutching at straws here!) a wedding hire shop nearby with mannequins in the window?

Maybe a quiet word with your ex about how DS seems to have a fear of penguins and can he think of anything nearby?

thank you for the replies. I've mentioned it to our childminder and his keyworker at preschool and asked them to note down at the time, word for word, if he says anything else about the penguin shop. At least that way if it comes up it's not just me saying something, there are some professional notes as well. I've also started a diary of his behaviour/emotional state when he comes home to see if there's anything building up that I need to pay more attention to. :(

It's horrible not knowing what to think. I don't want to get carried away if it's nothing but I hate the thought that he's upset or scared and I don't understand what he's telling me. I hope if he brings it up with someone else it will become a bit clearer.

He was there this weekend and my XH said he asked to come back early because he missed me. He was exhausted when he got home, and again yesterday he's been aggressive, angry, pushing and punching his brother. He also wet the bed last night for the first time at home.

He spent yesterday being really cross then trying to give me hugs and kisses to say sorry - but even that's a bit odd, it's like he does something out of character and aggressive then comes up and says 'here mummy I'll give you a hug and that will make it better won't it mummy? That will take it away, won't it?'. It feels weird because I've never asked him to hug after hitting someone or told him that a kiss/hug takes it away when he does a bad thing. I usually do time out and make him say sorry.

Anyway, I'll try and stay calm and sensible and give him a chance to tell me more in his own words. burningbridges I'm so sad to hear it was actually something horrible your DD was telling you, but it was helpful to hear because I called for advice too and they told me to inform the childminder/preschool to record anything as an impartial observer so that will hopefully make things clearer. Thank you for sharing that with me. I am glad your DD doesn't remember now :(

Also, hype thanks for the suggestions. He's not worried about actual penguins, if that makes sense. I feel like he's calling something else a 'penguin shop' but he's not actually scared if I show him a penguin picture or toy... god, feels like I'm going round in circles! Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

Let us know how you get on OP - you are on the right track realising that its not really about penguins, its something that "looks" or seems like a penguin.

What do you know about what your ex is doing with regards to bedtimes, discipline, routines etc?

God I feel for you, I would hate to hand my children over to someone else and not know what was going on. Would hate it completely. Awful for any mum.

I know nothing. Contact was supervised by his mum while our DS2 was newborn, but since it went to overnight we have no conversation at all. Handovers are done by my parents as he has been quite emotionally abusive to me. It's hard to know how to approach it because any criticism is met with threats to take me to court for dual residency or calling me a spoilt brat or a dictator or something similar. He often twists things to say I'm not coping with the children if I question their behaviour, and then suggests I give them to him and his girlfriend instead. If I asked about routine etc he would be furious. He has mentioned to me in passing that he dealt with the bedwetting by taking our DS1 out and 'having a word'. Which I don't like but it's hardly something I can make a big deal out of :(

So far DS1 hasn't said anything about it specifically again, but has wet two nights in a row here and is very clingy. I don't honestly know what to do other than keep a really close eye on things for now :(

Nefelibata.... this all sounds horrible. I am not sure what to think. My DS has a vivid imagination too, but not quite a scary as this. It could be many things - perhaps even just a simple change in his routine (eg. staying at XH and missing mummy).

This phrase from your DS scares me though... "They hold me down and hurt me and burn me at night."

Coupled with the fact that he seems upset at his dads, wants to come home, started bed wetting, has started being violent - then apologetic and over-loving afterwards....

Nefilibata... you said: "It feels weird because I've never asked him to hug after hitting someone or told him that a kiss/hug takes it away when he does a bad thing."
Who could have told/shown him that a cuddle after hurting someone would make it OK? Surely it's "don't hit/be mean/hurt someone etc in the first place"?

It's hard asking a 3 year old to be more specific and articulate, and you don't want to be putting words/ideas/suggestions into his head.

Have you spoken to family (your/his parents). Can you ask your XH what the Pengiun Shop is? It might be something very simple. You need to find out.
DS1 is still very young to be away from you for the weekend. It could just be that he is missing you very much and having weird dreams.

I know, I agree ChilliQueen. I'm going to have to just ask his dad and see what he says. That was the line that shocked and scared me too, up til he said that I put it down to an overactive imagination as well. Ok I'm just going to ask today and see what he comes back with.

Thank you for all the support x

How horrible OP. Just a thought, could you maybe go with your DS to the country lane where he says the penguin shop is, and ask him to show you what he is actually afraid of? Or play with toys, make one sleep at "his daddy" and let your DS continue, see what he does? Good luck, I feel for you!

Op I agree with too tired about trying to find it yourself too. If you ex is abusive, I'd ask for a meeting with your/his parents involved too. I'd also ask about the scratches. Dd has said silly things like he hit me etc when nothing happened but since you aren't there i'd investigate to be sure, Yanbu. I also wonder if he's been shown some tv programme that was too old for him that phrase about being held down is out of the normal run of things. Just a voice of support really to trust your instincts.

I called XH and asked him. Apparently he's mentioned it to him too, but only as a pleasant dream land where he has a lovely time. He says he will ask DS about it when he sees him but I don't think that's going to help at all :(

It's incredibly hard to know what to think but at least I've raised it with XH now and I'm doing what I can to let DS express what's on his mind. I hope it becomes clearer soon.

Hmm this does sounds worrying to me. It might be bad dreams or something similar but your ex's response seems strange to me. 'A pleasant dreamland where he has a lovely time.' -after your DS telling you the exact opposite. Something doesn't seem to fit. Be extra alert I suppose is all you can do. I'm sorry you're going through this. It must be horrible for you as well as DS1.

Just to say OP I think you're handling things wonderfully. It's so hard to know when it's imagination or something they can't vocalise.

Just a thought, he mentions the penguins burn him? As he has eczema could it be a reaction to the washing powder or the like that your ex washes his sheets, bedding or DS's pajamas with? The discomfort in the night could be causing lots of waking, upset and distribution putting him totally out of sorts for the next day? Only a thought as my nephew used to say his eczema would 'burn'at times...