What level of injury would you tolerate in rough/tumble play from a child?

[Eulalia]

ds had his 7th birthday party yesterday with a few school kids/siblings ranging from age 3 to a bit older than him. He has autism and badly scratched one boy. I never saw what happened but the boy had nail marks down his shoulder. They were all bare chested with it being hot and playing on bouncy castle/soft play type equipment. The boy didn't seem bothered by it but I was horrified. He also hit the boy's little brother who had a big red mark on his back.

I feel really dreadful and apologied to the dad who said it was OK, kids will be kids etc and that his son should have had his shirt on. However I still feel responsible. I have phoned the mum today but she's not in. I just don't know what to expect from this kind of play and want to know how you would feel (be honest please) about seeing your kid like this. Do they come home with injuries like this in normal play with other kids? How rough can they be?

I was trying to watch them but I have 2 other kids as well (age 4 and a baby) so not easy and our carer is on holiday. I feel as if we shouldn't have had the party and that my ds is never going to make friends if that is how he treats people.

Honestly? I'd intially be a bit shocked, but once I'd got over that first 'oh my god what happened?' I'd be fine with it. It was hot, they probably playing something silly and that's usually what happens. It wasn't deliberate and you didn't shrug it off, so I'd be happy.

I went on DS1s class trip the other day, and the current game amoungst the boys (7/8 years olds) is a version of 'It' where you tag the other players by either doing a sliding tackle at their ankles or a flying kick at their knees Luckily for my nerves and DS's trousers he doesn't see the appeal even though it was all the 'popular' boys playing it.

It's nice that you are worried, but it sounds perfectly normal to me

Hi Eulalia - I really do feel for you. I don't know a lot about autistic children, so forgive me if I say the wrong thing, but I want to be honest as you asked.

I would have been upset if my kids came home with these injuries. HOWEVER that upset would have vanished with your apology and subsequent phone call. All our children (autistic or not) sometimes cross the line with playing. With soft play and bouncy castles, to be honest, injuries are not uncommon. The children get hyped up, over-excited, and then there are bound to be some incidents.

For me, that is not the issue. The issue is how the parents handle it - if it is ignored, and by inference then permitted, that makes me cross! But if the parent is obviously concerned (as you are), apologies and even explains re the autism (although I don't know how much the autism contributed to the incidents?), then I would be perfectly reassured.

You sound like a caring, responsible person who cannot be expected to isolate your children in case things go wrong. You obviously have a lot to handle at the moment, and I think you should go easy on yourself. If possible, you should calmly explain to your son that that is not the way to treat people, and then I think you should put it behind you all.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
Amanda

I'm always shocked by how violent boys are with their rough & tumble. If my DS is ever resonsible for an accident to someone else I make him apologise to the child & parents but I don't know whether that is possible with your DS.
Sounds like you did absolutely the right thing. I wouldn't stress to much about calling the mother as well. If you apologised there & then to the Dad, that is enough. You don't want to make more of an issue than it is - if that makes sense.

eulalia try not to worry about it too much. My ds is 2 and took him to a friends house who was looking after her autistic nephew who was 6. He hit ds with a foam axe in the neck which left a big red mark. However while I was a little upset[as any parent would be at whatever injury there child has from another] it is also quite a normal thing to happen. Kids do get rough with each other and get caught up in the moment autistic or not. My friend apologised and spoke to her nephew who apologised and that was the end of it. I know from watching ds playing with dd and even dh that he gets caught up in rough and tumble quite a bit so really dont fret. All our kids will do it to someone else and will have something done to them..lol

Eulalia - I think as long as my child was ok with it, I would be too

I think I'd also cut a lot of slack in my reaction if I knew the child who did it had SN.

I think an apology is all that is needed and most parents would understand that whilst normally you would supervise a lot more closely and try to head off this kind of behaviour, when you are running a birthday party you just can't give the same level of supervision!

Thanks a lot. I tried to phone the mum because the dad only has them once a week and I just thought she'd wonder seeing them the next day. However I am sure he explained. I probably am worrying too much, its not as if he's marked anyone's face or broken anything.

I worry about the future though as he's getting bigger all the time and he may be bullied, or someone will hit him or no-one will come near us.

Aww Eulalia big sympathies from me

You apologised to the dad and he was ok so leave it at that.

I would have been upset initially but as other parents have said as long as you dealt with it in the way you did I am sure it's fine.

Maybe ds gets overwhelmed with so many children in such a close proximity?

I agree by phoning you are making more of an issue. Hope you feel better soon xxx

Are you sure it was your ds if there were loads of them leaping on the bouncy castle?

I wouldn't have batted an eyelid- ds1 does come home from school with marks like that on him sometimes (usually with an explanation that someone had been "cuddling" him ), I suspect he leaves his own at times as well.

Ds2 and Ds3 are far rougher in their play than ds1 (who likes a bit of space between him and other kids) which is why I ask if you're sure it was your son.

agree with the others - especially amanda. kids would not be kids if they were always perfect. If something like this happened to me it would only bother me if it didn;t bother the other parent iyswim. the only thing I would add - is that ime blokes are a lot more laid back about this stuff and don;t always pick up on there being a difference between "ds got scratched on the bouncey castle" and "ds got scratched on the bouncy castle; eulalia was very kind and apologetic" - ie I'm not 100 per cent sure you can rely on the dad to relay this aspect of the story - so I do think it's a good idea for you to phone the mum. (sorry if that offends any dads! but I know for sure that my dh would kind of take the apology bit for granted, but he's virtually horizontal about stuff like that)

Mind you reading this thread has reminded me of something fiofio said that had me ROFL (and nodding vigourously)

"I have just realised how different my life is#
In general my one friends kids whacks me so hard my eyes nearly pop out and i dont even flinch"

Yes it was him jimjams, the younger one was crying and said it was him and the older one said when I asked him how he got the mark. He's not the type to lie. They all know him well as they are in the same class at school and I know the mum well but it sort of makes it worse in a way for me. ds can be quite physical if someone is in the way,he'll just attempt to push/kick them aside. He doesn't attack people deliberately as obviously he'd cause a lot more damage then.

I just hate all this 'friend' business but its all part of his development I suppose. I hate having to rely on other people and create false social situations. Half the people I invited didn't turn up ...

ds's social skills are exactly the same as they were a year ago but his knowingness is much better. A typical conversation is:

ds - "I want X to come round here"

me - "But they are on holiday"

ds - "Well X has a mobile we can phone them"

me - "We don't know the number"

ds - "I can guess it"

etc etc...

Then he gets annoyed and says "Don't you let them go on holiday!"

I had to drag him away from a total strangers garden a few weeks ago because they were having a BBQ and he wanted to go. He just thought he could invite himself in!

Honestly Eulalia- I wouldn't worry. You apologised at the time, I don't see that you can do anymore. I know what you mean about it being unintentional- ds1 hasn't hurt another child (AFAIK) in over a year, and that was unintentional. In a way it makes it harder to deal with because its harder to explain to them what they have done wrong (I remember about 4 years ago ds1 repeatedly whamming a child's hand in a playhouse door, whilst I was trying to drag him away- he didn't even know the child was there, he just wanted the door shut- he's still like that around other kids, kind of blanks them completely and I think forgets they are there).

Don't stress about it though, you've done all you can and if someone gets funny about it, then its their problem really (doesn't sound like they are though).

Luckily ds1 isn't really capable of friendships (although their are some children in his class that I think he recognises and likes being around), or have any social abilities iyswim- and I do mean luckily- I'd hate having to try and fit him into the normal social circles- I think my stress levels would rocket So look after yourself and don't worry about it any more.

(If your ds had done that to either ds2 or ds3 btw I would just have assumed that they'd got in his way - not in a blaming way towards them/anyone- just in a "oh it happens" type way- and I would have told ds2 that he needed to give him more space- something I'm TRYING to teach him to give ds1- he does like winding him up).

Eulalia
I agree with AmandaP's post almost word for word. I would have been upset but then much mollified by the response from you. You know, MN does increase your awareness of things outside your own realm of experience because recently my 3 year old was being hit repeatedly by a boy at a soft play centre and I steamed over there, just bristling and shouted at him to stop. His mother apologised and told me he was autistic, and because of reading about hard it can be for mums of autistic children on here, and how sometimes this just happens, I really felt sympathy for her, even though she was quite defensive and not especially likeable. I think a few years ago, I;d still have been annoyed. Hope that doesn't sound like 'hey, I'm so fab and empathetic' because I just wanted to make the point that reading about these experiences from strangers really does increase awareness. All the best, anyway.

FioFio - I got SAT on by a very big girl. Unfortunately she tried to sit on ds3 as well (whisked away by me from underneath her- he was about 8 months at the time )

ds1 just sniffs other kids, or clambers over them (if they're in the way on play equipment). It was anightmare in soft play when he got fixed on one particular slide (5 tracks he wanted one). He just climbed over anyone sat in the way (without a mat obviously). The other kids din't know whether to tell him off for clambering on them or for not having a mat God that was a nightmare. Next time I'm taking 2 adults to 1 ds1.

Thanks everyone. I was just stressed in a normal way also about birthday parties and worried because half the folk I invite don't turn up (which I take personally) but we have this problem every year. Its a bad time to have a birthday, right in the middle of the school hols.

I do feel we are having the worst of all worlds with ds's social needs. He has all the usual desires of an NT child but his abilities are totally autistic. Have found it all much more stressful since this developed.

Our neighbour in particular who ds can see right across the road has been good in the past with her 11 year old daughter but she didn't come on Saturday and was quite rude about it. To be honest I don't think her dd is interested in ds any more but try telling that to ds...

At the moment ds has little bits here and there - after school club (no special friends there - different school to his own), dh's students who work on the house (he thinks they are his friends! bless), his carer (who is only 17) and a few of my friends children and that's about it. No-one really special for him. Am going to look into Cubs/Beavers for next session and maybe try a befriending type thing with a secondary school pupil, also get something going with some of the more decent people around about his age.... it all requires so much effort though!

Also do you think I should still pursue the same level of involvement with NT kids (the point being he will learn how to get one with them) OR do I make things less stressful and create more 'false' environments and try to teach him more gradually. Also considering starting some sort of family support group with autistic familes in this area but he may not learn how to get on with other autistic kids. At least they could all just ignore each other in unison!

It's ds2's birthday on Saturday (his first)! Arggh so in years to come I've got all this worry twice in one month - however I am not having 2 parties, no way.

See my thread in SN on consultations with Donna Williams. If you can afford 24 quid I would ask her advice about the friendships side of things (whether and how to persue NT ones). I think she'd be excellent for giving that sort of advice.

From things that I've read I would imagine the ideal way forward would be to hunt out others with HFA/AS. I don't necessarily think that people with AS do really "learn how to get on with" the NT world in any deep sense. They may learn to run an emulator, or be able to cope but ime most adults with AS that I know have close friendships with others on the spectrum, or with people who know a lot about the spectrum (because they're parents of autistic kids for example, or have worked in the area).

Sure your son needs to learn to function in the NT world (thank god mine doesn't ), but I wouldn't push involvement if its getting him stressed (if it isn't then sure go for it- you'll just need to develop crocodile skin for yourself although you probably have already). Do you have an NAS branch near you? As he gets older it might be worth trying to organise a HFA/AS group or something through it.

oh just noticed your bit about family support- yes I would definitely persue that- I would imagine as he goes into his teens it would really help. I do think you might want to consider having some sort of separate group for the HFA/AS end of the spectrum as the needs are very different from the other end, so if you had a family support group encompassing the spectrum then perhaps arrange a HFA/AS get together. I sort of think its important for children with HFA/AS to be able to hang out together with limited adult involvement (like a youth group) whereas something like that would be impossible if you included children like my ds1 (and I think children like him need activities organised that have a very high level of support- 1:1 - to allow them to access things like trampolining). We've just set up a new NAS branch and we really want it to provide activities for all ages and all parts of the spectrum (eventually). It might be worth swapping ideas as we develop....... I think it will mean having to provide separate activities- with quite clear instructions on what is available and who it is suitable for.

oh when I say limited adult involvement I don't mean leaving a free for all so they end up getting into scraps, just something that allows free choice of activities etc.

Eulalia
Sorry I can't offer any advice, but just wanted to add that the non-responding to party invitations just makes me seethe! What's wrong with these people!

Thanks again jimjams, some useful stuff there.

Had a day of it again - we got chucked out of a pub today! Too tired to post now, will explain tomorrow....