Please help, What am I doing wrong with gradual retreat

[stubbs0412]

Lo is 8.5 months
Horrendous sleeper
Breastfeeding
Has daytime naps fine about an hour x 2
Tired and in own bed about 7 after tea, pjs, sleepy bag, short feed, usually awake when put down.
Used to Wake after about an hour, sometimes it's 2 hours. That's the good bit, no compliants at all.
Sorry I know thus is lengthily, I'm nearly there ...
But .... He wakes continually, every hour of two, cries for ages, sits up, inconsolable. I'm so upset and so is he.
Day 6 GR today
Why is it not working?
Should I be still sat in the chair trying unsuccessfully to soothe/comfort him?
If he is hysterical do I pick him up ?
At first thus seemed to be making a slight improvement but tonight has been hideous, I want to cry. Sorry I've rambled.

Please only comment with worthwhile advice.

Ok so he can settle himself to sleep ok at bedtime, but not when he wakes in the night, is that right?

How long has he been doing the waking every hour or two - just a recent thing or a long time?

sorry that's questions not advice! I can give sympathy in the meantime...

Thank u for replying minipie
He has always woken up crying quite hysterically more often than not. Could it be bad dreams? Or separation anxiety, seems to be the thing HV kept talking about.... But he had always from day 1 done the alarming wake up.
He can settle at naps and at 7 when bed time starts, I have been sitting by his cot for 6 days (not literally!) attempting GR. He seemed to be only taking moments to go sleep at beginning of week, but tonight has been horrendous I'm dreading him waking up.

hmmm. Gradual retreat afaik is more about teaching them to self settle, but your DS can already do that. it does sound like something is waking him and he really can't get back to sleep on his own for some reason (it's not that he doesn't know how).

if he's done this from day 1 I'd be thinking some sort of physical thing rather than bad dreams or separation anxiety. does he have any symptoms of reflux for example?

how were you getting him back to sleep before the gradual retreat?

Hello minipie I started reply last night but baby awoke, then daughter got up crying of ear ache. Even less sleep than usual.
Sonetimes he goes back to sleep if I feed him, sometimes he doesn't, he isn't a cuddly rocky baby he is very wriggly and always moving, even if I lay with him he crawls around the bed, over me and I'm worried he will fall out of bed if I drift off so sleeping with and ignoring him no longer works.
I'm at my witts end, he won't sleep if I hold him he's too wriggly, think I said that. Gr seemed to make a diff at first but not ATM should I stop with patting & should I move away from cot or if anyone has tried it, is this a waste of time? I hate seeing and hearing him upset but I'm going crazy because nothing seems to please him.

Oh poor you. Hope tonight is better.

He sounds like DD, very wriggly, she will climb alll over me and not sleep if I put her in bed with me.

I'm assuming he's happy in the day? Definitely no signs of any physical problems, pain, teething etc?

if so, my best guess would be that he has learned to go to sleep at the start of a sleep, but he's never learned to go back to sleep when he wakes having already had 1-2hrs sleep. From his perspective he's had his 1-2 hrs sleep and doesn't need any more...

If that is the case - and if he's definitely not in any pain or ill - I would personally try controlled crying, i.e. leave the room altogether but come back at regular intervals to soothe him if he is really upset (every 2 or 3 mins) but leave him longer if he's quiet or just grizzling. If that doesn't make a major difference within 3 nights then there is probably something else going on.

It is awful hearing them cry during controlled crying, but as you say he's crying anyway whatever you try, so what's to lose for either of you.

Good luck.

Thanks minipie agree with first part of your reply, completely. The sleep he gets in the beginning of bed time seems to give him a lot of energy to perserve with his crying! I tried cc but he made himself sick, fairly soon on first night, he gags easily and is sometimes sick with even tiny half Cheerios.
Sure he sleep eventually !

Oh no! Ok then cc not a great idea. But he doesn't do that if you stay by the cot and pat him?

No sick if I stay so far. But consoling him can be impossible. I cannot believe he just went in cot awake and saw me leave but made no fuss at all. Minipie have you done this gt or other sleep training ideas

I've done CC but not gradual retreat. But that was to teach DD to self settle - she couldn't do it at all - so not quite the same as your position.

Hi -

I didn't know what 'gradual retreat' was, (though I could almost guess) so I just looked it up. I don't really think you can always expect babies or children to conform to set routines; they will feel different on different occasions, just as adults do. What has he got as his 'comforter' to cuddle or hold in bed? Our DS used to have a special blanket with a satin edge, and he loved one particular corner of it, and as he got older used to call it his 'bit'. "Where's my 'bit'?" he would ask, and if we offered him the wrong corner, he would turn it round until he found the correct one. (All corners looked the same, so maybe he could recognise the smell of it.)

That was thirty years ago! Both parents were available most of the time, and as we weren't working, we could fit our schedule around his requirements. Obviously, most people will need to have a more fixed schedule, so need to get to bed at a certain time and get up for work, or school or whatever.

Could he be teething? I don't know if Cheerios is an ideal snack; couldn't they be a bit rich? Maybe bit of dry toast or cream cracker be better?

Finally, couldn't you keep him up later than 7? Don't let him see TV or do any lively activities; just gradually wind down, until maybe 8 or 9, and then try bed. Or would that destroy your evening too much? How old is DD, with the ear ache?

I hadn't heard of gr untill last week when HV suggested it cc was not good he too too upset (he is my 5 baby I know they cry).
I would not mind at all keeping him up ferguson & have tried. I got him up a few times because he wakes after an hour or so of bedtime but he is inconsolable utterly so. This is what has caused me to try sleep training at all. He is tired, rubbing his eyes, moaning with eyes shut, wriggling and it's so heartbreak breaking ( not to mention bloody stressful at hell!)
He will often sleep if I offer a feed however he is not always interested. I'm out of ideas, how do you introduce a special something (comforter) if he isn't interested in anything we choose, my youngest d (5) has had an old top of mine for years, she liked the feel of it but she expressed interest in it sorry if that sounds a daft question, he wasn't interested in a dummy either.

Ok i did GR successfully - in fact it wasn't that gradual even! We were advised not to pat or engage, just sit there quietly next to cot. We were allowed to repeat one gentle phrase every minute ad nauseam but no other talking, can ssh if you want but i didn't think it helped. listen to music to drown out protest. If crying goes on for an hour, give it up as a bad job and give physical comfort. In retrospect this sounds awful and I'm surprised we could do it. But it made a huge difference after a couple of days. Also, if they wake, give it 10 mins before you go in to encourage self-settling. All of this is hard if you have another DC... Anyway, after a couple of weeks it became really obvious that DD actually needed something rather than just wanting some attention. She was 6 months at the time, by the way.

Fififrog thanks that's helpful. Think I'm going to wait before rushing in when he wakes. & all the patting doesn't make a lot of difference anyway. How long before you move away from cot? Did u leave light off? What about naps ?

My DS had a similar waking pattern to yours. I did gradual retreat at first to teach him to self-settle and break the bf-to-sleep association and it worked well. (I then did CC to break the habit of night wakings but I completely understand why it's not an option for you.) Things which helped, that you might like to try:

• make sure he is properly awake when you put him down. He may be giving the impression of self-settling at the start of the night because he is so knackered - but he must be fully aware of going to sleep in his cot, or he will be freaked out when he wakes and finds himself in an unfamiliar place. I sing The Grand Old Duke Of York very loudly while tickling but this is optional

• make sure he is comfortable overnight. Wrap him up warm - fleece sleepsuit, long-sleeved vest, heavier Grobag or whatever. Put him in a good quality night nappy.

• consider a comforter - M&S, Asda, Jellycat etc do little soft blankets with an attached cuddly toy specifically for this purpose - it made an amazing difference to my DS - he now sucks and chews and cuddles it to sleep and on night wakings.

• agree 100% with leaving him for a set amount of time when he wakes to encourage settling. We do 5 minutes by the clock; 10 sounds fine too, whatever you are comfortable with.

• when you go to him in the night, you must strive to be completely and utterly boring. The aim to remove all "reward" for night wakings, be it milk, attention, cuddles, whatever. It sounds mean but ultimately your DS will get the sleep he needs. So I would just go in, no lights on, reposition him if necessary, then sit by the cot without making eye contact or touching, murmuring your chosen "sleep phrase" at regular intervals (we used "ssshh, good boy in your cot, sleepy time now").

• naps - I just focused on night sleep and let DS nap when and where and how he wanted. They improved by themselves once the night sleep was sorted (though still aren't perfect).

Hope at least some of this is helpful

OP w

Bo

Sorry, my phone took on a life of it's own

I was trying to say what you're describing sounds very much like silent reflux. Ds was the same, gagging on food, vomiting when upset, screaming when he woke. I pushed and pushed for a referral and he was diagnosed and put on medication. It made a huge difference.
No sleep training stops a reflux baby waking.

Oh hedge .... I feel bad now. Glad u lo is ok
Tbh I was wondering if something was wrong, he is a most grumpy baby..... (Sorry but he is ) not content unless being held and generally moans a lot. So when he won't sleep either I'm near tears at times.
How did you get referral, you say you pushed, what made you think it was that? How did you convince the gp?

Hello again. Ds was also very grumpy and only happy being held. He cried a lot, particularly when lying down. I kept taking him to hv and gp and they kept telling me some babies 'just cry a lot'. It wasn't until I read a baby book describing silent reflux I realized what it was, he had every symptom they mentioned. I then went back to the gp and told them I was sure he had it and requested a referral to the local childrens hospital and refused to take no for an answer.
He was around 10 months by this time and ended up on meds until around 18 months.
It's incredibly common but for some reason it's completely ignored by health professionals.
I was so angry that we both had to suffer for months because no-one would take me seriously.
Obviously I can't say your baby definitely has it but a lot of what you said rang bells. You have my sympathies, it's so hard having a non sleeper. But do please go to your gp, if it is silent reflux it's treatable.

Reflux!! COI am a GP

I think with kids you def need to learn to trust your instincts - if you think there is something wrong def go to GP - our dd was clearly fine.

if you do continue with GR: def keep the lights out - the point is that night is night and for sleep and not talk - kongkick has described it perfectly.

we went from 1 week next to cot. Then straight out the door! Her room is very small...

also we just did night. Dd is 2.9 and i still often hold her hand for naps!