Please help me with 4 unruly dc

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I feel at my wits end with my kids, not a day goes past without one or more (usually more) having tantrums, hitting each other, giving me attitude, refusing to do basic chores. Getting them to school is an ordeal every day, getting them to bed worse. Ds1 is about to turn 10, ds2 7 in 2 days and the dts are 5. They are all individually good kids and have many good traits and can be helpful. But together, they seem like the most unruly bunch of badly behaved monsters. I suffer very badly from anxiety, my dad suggested my decision making with the kids is affected by that. I have literally got to the point that I don't know how to punish them as its happening so often. 5 yo ds3 has tantrums every day, we think he has an auditory problem and he gets distressed by the noise of the other kids. But he is ok at school and parties. Just behaves like a ghastly sod for dp & I.
If I describe what happens in a normal day, can you help with suggestions of how to tackle situations? Dp & I just end up yelling. I'm so sick of the yelling. Ds2 & 3 were being so ghastly tonight (they share a room) that I called them both horrible and smacked them. I am ill ATM and had to drag myself out of bed to try and get them ready for bed whilst dp picked up dd from Rainbows. I just hate myself when I do that, dp rarely seems to say anything nice to any of them anymore. It's just nagging, instructions and yelling. I spend more time with them so some of the time is positive but I'm just as bad. I dread taking them out, I dread people coming over & I am particularly dreading 2 weeks at home with them at Christmas. The weekends are awful enough.

just wanted to say my sympathies. same here (6 of them though plus I'm pg), they are lovely but can be batshit crazy

two eldest are ill, so house is slightly quieter - maybe sedate them?

I have no solutions but here to hold your hand.

btw we have 2 birthdays as well this month - DS3 is 9 tomorrow and DS4 is 7 Saturday week!

I should have mentioned that ds1 is being assessed for aSD. He has meltdowns, and reacts very aggressively sometimes.

Dp just wants to take a punitive approach until they 'get that they can't behave like this'. He's just taken 7 days of tv off ds2 & ds3 whilst I was sobbing in our bedroom. I don't feel that punishment is the way, but both he & my dad are very punishment driven. I've tried things like stickers & kindness charts but he doesn't back me up, he often fights battles about the small things. He asked ds2 to empty the bins on the weekend. Ds2 did 80% of the bins (we have a big house). Instead of praising him, he sent him back for the rest. Ds2 was getting really upset and I stepped in.we don't parent well together. It seems as though we ought to have this sorted by now. That at the ages they are, our kids should do as they're asked the first time, be polite and not scream at each other constantly. But the message from us is scream as soon as anything's not right. That's all they hear. And they're all lovely kids, I hate what we are doing to them.

Morning: wake kids up. Ask ds1 to get out of bed 12 times before he does. Have to put ds3's clothes on for him. Ask 3 or 4 times for each of them to go downstairs for breakfast. Screeching at each other through breakfast. I have a shower, then dp. Screeching continues. Ds3 is asked several times to brush his teeth, put coat on. If one of the others says something to ds3 he's not happy with, he will make loud unpleasant noises, stamp his feet etc . The others are ok, but lots of bickering. I try and praise any little helpful things anyone's done to get ready. And if we get in the car in time, I always thank them.

I pick them all up from school: the 3 boys will bicker on the way to the car, possibly someone will hit, ds3 will have another tantrum, ds1 will get nasty with anyone else who wants to tell me about their day as he monopolises my attention. I often end up in tears by the time I've driven home as they are screaming at each other and ds3 still tantrumming. Ds1 will often kick off about something, which may lead to a meltdown. The other week it took 45 mins to calm ds3 down & then ds1 started. I was sobbing when dp came home.

Any ideas on what to change to make this better?

Hello Zing and thanks for posting. It's nice to know that someone else is out there. I feel like I have the worse behaved dc ever sometimes.

we need a competition of who has the naughtiest kids, don't we?

I have just talked to my NDN tonight, her 17 year old son is driving her potty.

just remember that when you feel like strangling them the best strategy is to just give them a long squeezy hug and tell them that you love them so much.
you will definitely feel better and they will respond, especially if you can muster the energy to tease them.
laugh with them and things won't seem so bad - it's the only thing I can suggest to do which works for me/us.

Could you see if there are any parenting classes run locally that you and your OH attend together. Other than that I think the best advice is pick your battles ,don't shout - if necessary just walk away and count to 10 ,and don't implement punishments that you have no chance of sticking to .

You're right Zing, I try to think 'I love him, I love him' but its so bloody relentless. I have to have the patience of a saint to ignore it all. And I don't.
What do we do about having different takes on parenting though? Dp wouldn't attend a course. We had someone deliver a course to us when CAMHS were working with ds1, he was so patronising though I don't think either of us took it in. I would go though, there are some near us. Good idea,maybe that will break the cycle. Dp gets very protective of me, if I'm getting upset with the noise or shouting he will go ballistic with them. We've talked about this, but he still does it. I've been offered a new anti-anxiety drug but loath to take it as its pretty heavy.

Hi, I'm a foster carer and my top tip for unruly kids ( especially when ASD) is a visual timetable, breaking each day into small segments. You can get them on eBay and customise them. I find it helps me as much as the kids as I know that xxxx will be over in 15 minutes and we are a step nearer the end of the day. I try to keep things as simple as possible and avoid variation, and give the children their own 'special' jobs - such as setting the table, putting books away etc. however bad the day is, we end with hot chocolate and marshmallows so no- one goes to bed on a bad note. I don't do loads of after school clubs, I find it's very stressful, so I limit after school activities and do simple things like going to the park with a ball instead. In terms of discipline I always talk a tone lower and slower than the children and rarely shout, just emphasise what I want to happen.

4 children is hard, and it is always going to be a lot of work - I find even when mine are trained it's hard because they still need help with their activities. Lowering my expectations of how a day would go definitely helped me!

Do you get the chance to do anything with them one-to-one? Even just 20 mins a week with each one? And does your dp get a chance to do the same? It might help their behaviour and be nice for you as well to get some more enjoyable time with them.

Its great that your dp is protective of you but could you explain to him that your anxiety is made worse when the kids behave badly. And that the situation is not going to improve unless you can parent consistently together (although I don't think many people manage to do this all the time, we certainly don't).

Hi, I agree with Parsnip. I have 5dc. We have a visual timetable too. Also a points system. And if the child doesn't want to do something, I try and turn it into a game (I am not perfect and sometimes this slides) but a easy way to do it is against a timer. Kids love a challenge.
Also I ask them chore wise, to do thing that don't have to be done perfect, window sills etc. praise come on effort rather that how well something done. Also more praise for harder jobs. I do agree with you, op. That 80% of the bins is ok. I would say "Well done, that's great, next time will be better when you can get them all done in the same amount of time). My kids love to prove me they can do it.
Also every night when they go to bed, I tell them one thing that they were good at. (sometimes it a struggle.) It ends the day on a good note and I can pat myself on the back.

Also shouting does not work, helps me feel in control for a nano second, then embarrassed after. I have my own chart for that,the kids put point on, if I don't shout. I am getting better. I came from a shouty family, so am retraining myself as I want better for my kids.

Having a big family is hard. I have also found playing games together, ie cards, has improved the way talk to each other.

I am still learning, but the above has help us. Also I had a patronising counsellor via CAHM too so that put me off, but there are some good books out there. I will try and link a couple when I get to the PC.

You not alone in this struggle!

Thanks all for ideas. I can absolutely see that shouting doesn't work and is harmful but we don't have an alternative so resort to it every time.

In answer to qu's, yes have has several discussions with dp about his over-protectiveness & explained how it made things worse. He's had years of watching me reduced to severe panic, stuttering, tremors. Can't really say I blame him. I need to manage the anxiety and walk away but they often follow me!

I think across a week we would both manage time alone with each dc but I am not sure how much of the time we are totally focused on them. I'm so often doing chores.

Ds1 has a visual timetable at school, it's a good idea to try with all of them. Dp wanted to write up a chores/homework timetable but I resisted as it just seemed more work for me! I would like to do a kindness chart again and we tried out 'marvellous march' where each child got to choose something they wanted to do. They were very good for that. But it's always me coming up with the ideas, seeing it through, encouraging the dc. Any pocket money schemes come from me.
How would a points system work - at the moment they are asked to do stuff during the week (empty dishwasher, bins, sort washing) but its pretty random and I just say thank you! I guess they need more motivation.

No-one has suggested what consequences we should give them for the bad behaviour nor how to tackle the 5yo and 7yo tantrums. My 7yo spent much of the morning before school whining about something trivial his brother has done. How do we tackle that?

Is it the 2 that share a room that are the worst together ,if so could you change the rooms around so that they either don't share or have a larger room that can have some kind of divider to give them their own space ? Perhaps set them all up a jar each and each time they do something good or are well behaved / considerate to each other put a marble in then when they get to a certain number they get a treat ie a magazine ,larger than normal chocolate bar ,small toy .Keep them out of reach though so there can be no arguing about touching each other's jars .

Have just moved them into the room together in August, so dd could have her own room. But no, it's not working out well. They do have a big room though, but it's not divided. Ds3 is quite frankly a pita to share a room with so I do have some sympathy for ds2. We have another bedroom but I've been using it all year, dp & I having some problems. And I needed space to myself to combat the anxiety.

Have never tried marbles. I think we are very random about rewards tbh. They probably don't know how our system works, I don't! We had pocket money but the hV who came to offer parenting help (my request) last yr suggested pocket money every day if they did the stuff we asked. Just couldn't keep it going. Seemed mad. She also suggested taking 15 mins tv/screen time away for a major infraction (violence gets a time out). But honestly I can't keep track. Dp takes 15 mins from someone in the morning I've forgotten by the time they get home from school. And I can't make dinner if I'm dragging a child away from the tv every 2 mins.it hasn't changed their behaviour. Ds3 loses it nearly every day. Pointless. Makes no difference to him.

Sorry in answer to the qu, the 2 worst at the moment share a room. Ds1 has his own room and can be the worst too but usually his ASD traits. Ds3 has auditory processing problems we think and some attention issues but as he's only 5 it's a waiting game. I would actually describe the two who are sharing ds2&3 as very helpful children. However they're so bound up in feuds and whining they're horrific at present.

My point system is on a wipeboard. 11 yrs has to get 15 points, 9yr 13, dt 7yo 10 points. They get points for chores, homework, helping their sibling etc. lose points for untidy bedroom, rudeness! extreme bad behaviour! but they all get a a warning to rectify the wrong doing they can only lose a maximum of one point, no losing my temper and wiping the board. Points start on a Saturday, if they have their point by Friday morning they get Fun Friday = fun food! big dessert! goodies and a film/programme and to stay up late, also computers all weekend. They have no computers/iPads access Monday to Friday. But the keys is, those who don't get their points don't get the treat, no dessert, early bedtime, no computers etc in the first few week, the chances are you will get them rebelling, I don't want to do this, but if you consistent it can be put into place. My 9yo refused to do it for the first 3 weeks and missed out, now he earn over 20 points every week and get to chose the dessert! I love this system and it works for us, but you know your family tweet it where necessary to fit into you ideological and family.

Can't help you on the tantrum side. Just try not to feed it, walk away. But I am sure you know that anyway. I don't try to engage and leave.
Raising Boys and the best book I have ever read on this subject Beyond Toddledom by Dr Green.

For tantrums try to seperate them one on the step one on the bed. Shut the door so you can't hear and let them go nuts, they probably need to let some steam off.

My ds was horrendous for arguing at 4.5-5yrs I really didn't like him very much but we got through it. To be honest he went 3 weeks with no tv at all.

That is the only punishment that works with him (shamefully) so I use it. He finally got that I mean it.

Now ds and dd are arguing I send them to separate rooms and turn the tv off. If they are all kicking off send them all to different rooms until they can be pleasant and be in your company......this is about survival at the moment and you need a bit of calm to think.

Can you afford a cleaner once a fortnight with chores ?

God I sound harsh ! But I wanted to quickly type a response before bed and send you some support, I have felt this way and I feel for you struggling .

Angry, that sounds a good system too, I like the idea of different points for different ages. Money makes no difference to the dts but they could choose the reward they want. ATM we quite often shut ds3 in the garden as he is so noisy we can hear him inside argh. The noise is quite distressing for all of us tbh. But it is getting cold. He may respond better to positive reinforcement when he doesn't tantrum. I haven't found his weak spot yet! The noise from the other kids is a real factor for him but he is too young to be taught coping strategies. I just leave him to it right now but it's not changing just every day tantrums and the other dc hate it! It's been a year now and even worse since the summer.
Guitar, thanks I do try to separate. But I'm battling 3 very stubborn boys sometimes, 2 having tantrums, 1 hyper and unable to stick his nose out. I can't cope with the stress. Dd bless her, just waits so she can get a story.

Ahh yes the stubbornness of boys is hard to understand till you come up against it ! I think you sound like you're doing a great job it's just a really difficult phase :(

Now ds is 6 he can give in a little and understand that being stubborn isn't how he gets what he wants

Thanks pretty. I feel like I'm doing a rotten job every time I yell. Tried talking to dp about the various suggestions and got short shrift. Sigh. Apparently it's never worked before so it won't work now and we won't remember. Blah blah. I'm on mumsnet asking for solutions, I'm thinking about it all but he just carries on insisting all we have to do is ban tv for a week & that will fix it. Maybe, but I think kids need more motivation than that.

I havent read all the rplies so may be repeating but i can sympathise with you. I have two boys that can be a handful (actually thats a understatement!). They are lovely boys but are just always up to mischief, killing eachother, trashing the place etc. Dp and I were at loggerheads and we ended up resorting to shouting. everytime shouting made/makes it worse. The boys just got even more hyper when we would shout and it was a vicious circle. i had an awful day last week and ended up in tears and called them brats! like your dp, dp thought punishment and shouting was the way to go. we decided to sit down last week and discuss it and think of a new strategy.

Dp was adament that 'they cant get away with this' and 'they have to learn' but i just said, its obviously not working. if it was they would be improving not getting worse.

so we decided to start a fresh start on monday by just not shouting, ignoring minor issues and distracting. If they hit eachother, they go to room for 5 mins but with no shouting. I have to say, it has worked a charm! They are happier and we are happier.

Mine are younger than yours (they are just 4 & 5) though so i know some of the tricks wont work on yours. I dotn have to drag mine out of bed yet! they are normally dragging me out! In the mornings i wont turn on telly until they are dressed and if they get dressed quickly, i allow them to pour their own milk, or crack the eggs for breakfast.

Then after breakfast, if they have their teeth brushed/hair/face done they know we can leave a bit earlier and have a play with their friends before they go into school.

Im just trying to use natural consequences rather then shouting.

Last week i came down for breakfast to find that they had emptied a whole tin of hot choc all over the floor and were making snow angels in it! I can laugh now but at the time i was furious! so i cancelled a trip to santa we had planned. Normally i wouldnt have followed through but i was just sick of it. they are too old for that crap!

I am telling you, parenting is a million times harder then i ever imagined it to be. I always feel like i am the one with the boldest kids!

I'm not sure about tantrums. The boys aren't too bad for these but I would say just leave him to it and tell him you will speak to him when he's calm.

I've had a read through the replies and have to agree with angry, we have started playing card games (as a way to cut down tv). We just play snap or a matching game and it is just brilliant for getting everyone involved. I said to ds last week 'you really love cards don't you?' and he said 'actually I just love spending time with you' that's all they want at the end of the day and it's hard with house/jobs etc to get the time. I remember actually hearing some child psychologist say that it's better to give your kids 15min undivided attention then being half listening to them for an hour.

That's a great idea about the adults having a shouting chart. I'm definitely going to make one of those. The kids will love it :)

Firstly wait till you are better before doing anything.

I think secondly you need to sit down with DH and discuss how you need to parent the same and agree not to scream/shout. Read various books on parenting after looking at amazon reviews. Discuss and use the best bits of the books together and agree a way forward.

Thirdly hold a family meeting. Agree new rotas, new rules - not screaming/hitting and out line what will happen in terms of discipline if rules are broken. How many warnings etc. do the kids have any ideas on how to make things run smoothly? Rewards etc. you may be giving too many chances/warnings and generally children will push things to the limit.

Lastly implement and be consistent. For things to get better, you need to make a lot if effort initially. There maybe s backlash initially but hold firm and ride it out.

A few things you can do. Stop the car if there is bickering or tantrums. Stop the car and quietly tell them you are waiting till they are quiet so you can concentrate on driving. And stop as often or as long as you need to. Wait it out. Be patient and late for school/clubs if necessary. Your ability to drive safely is most important. Get out if the car if you feel wobbly.

Tell your children they can have 15mins telly/a edible treat/treat in lunch box each day they are ready on time and with no squabbles. Sit them all down and run through a new timetable. Tell them you are not going to nag them but will tell them once only. Have a simple morning timetable on the bathroom door. Get a cooking timer. Set it at various times to go off. Ie) 7.15 to get up, breakfast 8, out 8.30.

The other approach is just not to get stressed about getting ready in the morning and not care if you are late for school.

They can earn screen time. So 10 mins each for various chores. Keep a running tally on your fridge. My children of a similar age sort the washing into piles/tidy their toys and bedrooms/empty the dishwasher/hoover/sweep. Once shown what to do they are fine. I always tell them we are s team and need to help each other.

Squabbles while eating - calmly remove the child causing issues and put them outside with coat/shoes. It's your house, you have cooked a nice meal and you expect children to behave nicely whilst eating it. Remain calm yourself and concentrate on catching up with how the kids days went.

Try and do some nice activities together and 1 to 1 - drawing /games/reading. Set an example if how to interact. It will make a huge difference. You won't look back in 20 years and wish you had cleaned more - thats for sure. You may wish you had given more attention to your kids though.

Thank you Tapioca and Twoplus, I appreciate you sharing and reading through my lengthy posts. I do stop the car! It's a blinking 7 mins journey, have been known to stop 3 times. Yet they all still squawk. I gave up and got some funny stories and CDs plus a book in the back for 9yo. It's better. I am finding that if I take a less aggressive approach it works better such as distraction, bribery. Then bloody dp comes home and within 3 minutes has blasted someone. Tried again to have a discussion but he walked out.

I am too anxious to just let them be late. And only 1 of them would care, he's the best at getting ready. I've been down with flu all week so not able to shout and they've been really good because I'm taking a softly softly approach. I think my anxiety is at the heart of some of this. And dp's intractable 'they will learn' attitude which I don't share but somehow infects me!

I cannot play a game with all 4, it's a nightmare. Ds1 gets aggressive, ds2 gets defensive, ds3 is pedantic and dd just loses interest. May split them up more to do it though the ages get tricky. I loved playing games as a kid.

I've got loads of ideas from here but most of all support which I really appreciate. I do think my kids are basically polite and lovely, they just need encouraging and a lot less shouting. But it feels as though dp ruins my hard work a lot, he isn't good at subtlety or distraction. Goes at everything with a bulk in a china shop. I have bought and read lots of parenting books but I have to find them, read them, try to implement with no bloody interest or support from him. If I'm having an off week, it all goes to pot but Im looking at reducing my hours so I will be less stressed.