Worried DD is a bully.

[bettyhazel]

Will try not to drip feed, so this may be long winded.

DD is 5.

Bit of a back story, last year, another parent (lets call her Mother A) approached me and told me that DD was part of a group of girls who had been bullying her DD (all aged 4 at the time). She made it clear that my DD wasn't the bully, but she was involved in upsetting her DD. Mother A was very confrontational, rude, intimidating and generally very, very unpleasant towards me. It left me very shaken.

The whole thing came as a massive shock to me. I had no idea at all about what had been going on.

I spoke to the head the following day, who confirmed there had been allegations against my DD (6 months previously), school investigated, and found no problems with regards to my DD. All other issues had long been sorted and settled. Head said that parents are called in when school have exhausted all other channels. Both Head and DDs teacher felt there were no issues with DD which is why I wasn't' contacted.

Head was incredibly annoyed that mother A had approached me and dragged up the situation.

Fast forward to this September. DD was coming home almost daily telling me she was getting told off for something in school. e.g, for not listening, pushing another girl, shoving someones bag, shouting at a girl, pinching someone etc.

After a month of this, I wrote a letter to DDs teacher stating my concerns that DD wasn't behaving in an appropriate manner in school.

She wrote a letter back to me saying that there had been an issue with one of the girls in class feeling unhappy about coming to school. The head had spoken to DD and her peers about the importance of being nice friends. The teacher had said girl in question was happy again and all issues had been resolved in school and there was no concerns with DD at all.

Several weeks later, it was parents evening. No concerns from teacher. She said DD does get a telling off at times, but no more than any other pupil in the class. She said there were no issues with regards to her friends, or any one being unhappy. She was happy with DDs behavior and general school progress.

Fast forward to now, and DD still sometimes comes home saying "X was crying in school today because I pinched her. I had a row from Miss Y and then I was crying" and general issues like that. Pushing, shouting at other children etc.

I'm finding myself loosing control of my paranoia towards DDs behavior in school. I'm worried she's a bully that all the other parents warn their children about. If I'm honest, I think Mother A has left me a bit traumatised and paranoid

Every time I contact the school, they reassure me. I'm starting to feel like an over bearing annoying parent.

I reenforce heavily to DD the importance of being nice. The consequences of her actions, we do reward charts and sticker charts to encourage her.

We both talk about how being nasty can upset other children and the importance of thinking about other children's feelings and emotions. We talk about these issues at length during bed time.

She seems to genuinely understand, then the following day she'll come home saying "I had a row today because I pinched X"

This afternoon she's come home from school saying she shouted at X and upset her

I just don't know what to do.

I don't go to school myself mornings/afternoons due to other circumstances, DD has transport to school, so I don't get that regular daily contact with school. I worry sometimes I fill in my own blanks and end up in a mess like I am now.

Please be gentle with me, I'm at absolute rock bottom

Hello OP.

You seem to be having a dreadful time. I'm sorry to hear all of this. I haven't any experience of this so far, but I thought I'd give you my thoughts just in case they help a little!

Maybe take the time to arrange with the school a sit down with your DD and the teacher(s) to talk about her behaviour together. Explain to them prior to the meeting all of what you've explained on here! ( what you don't want to say in front of DD) It must be very frustrating to hear reassurance from the school yet almost a different story from your DD. I think it's worth explaining to them that this is how you feel and that it is leaving you confused and frustrated, it really needs to be discussed properly so that you can start to tackle what your DD is saying to you and work out what is really going on.

Once you and the school approach your daughters behaviour as a team you can then start thinking about the best way to reward good behaviour. Sticker charts can be great, but in my experience as children get older they don't seem to mean much to them. There are many more effective ways, such as a marble jar. This is more physical and the child can put the marble in the jar themselves every time she has had a good day at school. Once the jar is filled (small-ish jar) then she can maybe have a treat, such as a day out or an activity or a small gift. If she has had a bad day, a marble get's taken out and she can start to see the consequences of her behaviour. 'Feelings' books can be picked up in book shops which are great for teaching our children how being sad can make someone feel. My son was bullied in nursery and the advice given to me was to get out some toys and suggest playing 'nursery' together. Ask your child to point out which toy represents who and see what they do with the toys. ( so maybe in your case you could play schools?) If your DD happens to show negative behaviour towards one toy you can then start to ask why she did that, or feels that way towards that person and how we deal with those situations more positively.

I know the marble jar may be difficult in your situation as you are not able to have a quick exchange with the teacher at the end of the day. Maybe when you perhaps meet with the teacher you can work out a way you can get this message across to each other - Could The teacher leave a very brief message at reception at the end of the day and you could call in to see how DD's day went. I know it's an extra effort on both parts, but it does seem necessary considering how you are feeling about the whole thing, and to deal with it as much as possible before it gets worse.

At this age they are exploring their own personalities and boundaries
and discovering that they have their own lives. Children will act differently at home than they will at school. It isn't anything you have done and you seem to have dealt with the situation well. I wouldn't worry about the other parent too much although I understand it must have left you feeling a bit shaken but you are doing all of the right things, whereas they didn't and they shouldn't have approached you. As adults and parents we should all have an understanding that our children are not perfect and make the effort to teach them the right way by working together, it's quite ironic that she approached you in an intimidating manor given the circumstances!

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply to my (long!) post Parenthood

We have an agreement with the school already. DDs teacher said any issues at all and she'll pop a note in DDs reading bag. She firmly reassured me DD was doing OK in school after I voiced my concerns at how she comes home telling me she's been misbehaving at school so regularly.

Her teacher seems to think that DD is reporting back at a much bigger scale than the reality of the situation.

For example, the reality situation could be DD is chatting in class. Teacher tells her to hush and swiftly moves on. DD comes back and tells me she had a big, big telling off today because she was disrupting the class. In my head then, I picture DD behaving in a really unacceptable way, where as in reality, it's not the case at all iyswim?

I find sticker charts work well while DD is at home, and it's there, hanging up in the kitchen where she can see it. When she leaves the house, of course that piece of paper in the kitchen becomes a distant memory to her, 5 hours into her school day!

I've had no other reason for concern from other parents, and no teacher has ever raised concerns with me over the years during parents evening.

I sometimes think the problem is actually with me and DD is just being a regular 5 year old who's pushing the social boundaries a bit.

Thanks again for your reply, I've read what you've written very closely and I've taken on board everything you've said.

I think you should not lose sight of the fact that 5 is still very, very young and some kids just take that bit longer to hone their social skills. My Dd had a bit of bother from her friend last year...they're now in year one so aged 5 too...it's calmed down now but I do not judge the friend...she's small! I also think the school do not sound proactive enough in stopping this behaviour and that in your shoes, I would go and ask for an appointment to work out some strategies between the school and you, to help DD stop this.

Thanks Jitney

You're right, I sometimes forget how painfully young it is to be 5. DD is mentally young for her age too.

I've contacted the school several times over this and each time I'm reassured, staff ring me to talk it through with me, we correspond with letters and I've been up the school myself few times. I've been reassured that any issues will be brought to my attention right away.

I feel if I keep going on at them, I'm just coming across as a total loon.

Well then I think you've done absolutely everything you can. You can be at peace with that - I'm sure it will all settle down soon and like you said she's still very young x

Thanks Parenthood I hope it'll all blow over soon.

First of all be gentle with yourself. You have done everything in your power to make sure your dd behaves nicely. You've spoken to her repeatedly and liaised with the school.

If you're approached by mother A again, tell her you'd like to deal with it through and with the school so could she please direct the conversation to them and reassure her that you will cooperate with anything the school want implemented.

Does your dd say why she pinched?

Thanks Idespair (good name BTW, am feeling that right now!).

She said she pinched X and she didn't know why she did it. They were playing a game and she just pinched her. I can't tell you more than that.

When I question DD she gets very upset and remorseful very quickly. She can never give me an answer why she does things.

I fully intend to not get into anything with Mother A if she does challenge me again. Last time I just stood there with my jaw open, sobbing

Ah bettyhazel no 5 year old child can be called a bully - no way at all. I think as you say this whole worry of yours started when you were confronted by the parent of another child. My son and dil are both primary school teachers and say that the worst thing they have to deal with is parents coming complaining of "A being nasty to their child etc." and what are they going to do about it. My dil says she says to such parents IF there was a problem it would be dealt with, but the best thing to do is let the children sort things out for themselves, and only intervening when necessary. Sometimes parents come in naming another child who is "picking on their child" and of course teachers can't discuss the behaviour of another child with a parent.

I think this is one of those cases. The problem lies with the parent who confronted you. She is going to have to realise that she can't fight her child's battles for her, as she goes through childhood and confronting the parent of a child who her child has complained about it simply not on. I can understand why you were shaken and sadly this has made you feel that your daughter is a bully. That parent will have to discover over time that her daughter will not thank her for her intervention.

I have learned a lot from my wise DIL. When my DGD was in primary school there was a girl who was very possessive of her and wouldn't let her play with anyone else. At about aged 7 my DGD was saying that she had to "fake" being her best friend which I thought was awful. I asked my DIL if she should talk to the teacher but she said NO, the job of parents was to give their children the skills to deal with what they came up against in life, and she was so right. The girl left the school in Year 4 and my DGD's friendships with other girls blossomed but she said she would never let anyone treat her like the possessive girl again. SO a lesson well learned.

IF there was a problem with your little girl you would be called into school. Children of 5 say all things of strange things, the favourite when they first start school is "I don't have anyone to play with" and my other DIL was upset when my DGS said this, but then she found out that all her friend's kids who started school at the same time were saying the same things!

Over time there will be lots of things that will worry and delight you by turn............it's called being a mother, and can I say it never ends, it's a life sentence! My sons are in their 40s and I still worry about them, and want things to be right for them, and so will you!

I think it's great that she tells you what she has been doing, even if it involves her getting in trouble.

She seems to be telling you everything! Some incidents might have been a very gentle reminder of how to behave, not a big telling off.

Believe me if the school was concerned they would tell you, especially as you contact school and openly want to know.

5 is really young. Lots of social and emotional development taking place.

Please don't worry.

Thank you both, really, your words have reassured me massively.

School have basically said what you've said NanaNina They said they deal with issues within the school, and only invite parents in if they feel they need to be.

And yes, you're spot on, Mother A has planted a horrible seed in my head about my girl I'm finding it hard to kill that seed.

Iwaswatchingthat, DD tells me everything She voluntary turns herself in ALL the time!

Do you think she could be making it up or deliberately exaggerating for attention? It sounds like she gets a lot of attention if she tells you she's pinched someone.

If the school says it's fine I would tend to believe them. Maybe try downplaying it a bit. When she tells you what she's done just say 'thank you for telling me/being honest, it sounds like Miss X dealt with it at school so let's not worry about it anymore' and then move on.

How is she when you observe her playing with other kids (at the park, playdates, parties etc.)?

I have a different perspective on this as the parent of a child who was badly bullied at the age of 4.5 by children slightly older, I think bullies do exist at that age. I was also bullied in reception class when I was 5 by a gang of 3 six year olds, who made my life a fucking misery.

OP, if you don't trust the schools opinion can you ask that they call in the Educational Psychology service to observe the class and perhaps talk to your DD and report back to you? The pinching thing sounds a little odd to be honest. If she is behaving in a nasty way to other kids perhaps the psychologist can suggest strategies to break the cycle of behaviour?

I don't think she's making it up. DD1 (8yrs old) will often report back to me from the school play ground (DD in question is DD2). DD1 and DD2 line of events do match each other.

When I observe her, she's generally fine. She does sometimes get a bit over excited, but over all, she's fine. She's never shown any real malice, even as a very young toddler. She's never biten, hit, punched etc.

An example of her enthusiasm that I witnessed myself in the park on the weekend.

Friend A: DD, chase me!
DD: No, I don't want to.
Friend A: DD, please chase me! C'mon! Play with me!
DD: Nope.
Friend A: Chase me! You can't catch me, you can't catch me!
Me: Go on DD, friend A wants to play with you. Go and have fun
DD: OK.

DD gains speed and catches up to Friend. Holds on to her hood and runs behind her.

Friend A stops running: You pulled my hood!

Friend A to her mum: DD pulled my hood! I don't like DD!
DD:

In her defense, she really didn't pull her hood.

These sort of things just seem to happen a lot to her.

She just seems to end up pissing people off with no ill intentions. Don't know if that's relevant to anything or not.

She goes on a few play dates, not many admittedly. She always gets invited back with no complaints from play date host.

Any play dates I've invited over for he, have always come and her friends have always had a nice time. We all bake cakes together, then they usually dress up/play board games. No issues there.

Parties, she doesn't get many invites, but the ones she goes to, she joins in, laughs, dances etc. Again, no issues.

Oh for goodness sake Abitannoyed the school aren't going to call in the "Educational Psychologist" to a class of 5 year olds, and as for thinking the Ed Psych is going to "talk" to the OP's daughter, that is simply not on. And no pinching in small children is not "a little odd" at all - sometimes it just means fooling around with another child and pulling each other's noses. I've seen children in the playground doing that. And the OP's child is not behaving in a "nasty way to the other kids" and there is no "cycle of behaviour" to be broken.

I'm sorry you were bullied and you feel that your child was also and I'm wondering if you were hyper sensitive in relation to your child because of your own experiences in school.

Bettyhazel please done let this post upset you. Ed Psychs are like gold dust and getting them into secondary to assess children/young people with real behaviour problems is difficult, and I think Abitannoyed's post is totally over the top, obviously fuelled by her own experiences.

Try to put the matter of the confrontational mother behind you. It is her problem, not yours.

Abitannoyedatthis Sorry, xposted. Thanks for your feedback and I'm sorry you had such a hard time yourself and with your DC.

It's not that I don't trust the schools judgment on this, I suppose I'm just trying to make sense of the information I am getting. Everything I've posted is purely based on what DD has told me at the end of her school day.

I feel it's quite a big step getting a psychologist involved purely based on DDs line of events.

Why do you think the pinching this is odd?

Nana nina, sorry to burst your bubble but they did just this for my child and another in the class which is why I suggested it! Perhaps I am in a well resourced area - the ed psych service is also very visible at my child's secondary school and perhaps I am over sensitive but I think bullying should be tackled, not laughed off as normal.

I don't think pinching is normal behaviour. I don't pinch, my kids don't pinch. I think OP's daughter has learnt it from someone else and it has become normalised - it sounds like she doesn't want to do it.

I see what you're saying about your dd.
In dd1's form there was a little boy who seemed to be always the one who got caught doing the naughty things. I remember watching the class in reception once. One little lad decided to swing a piece of paper above his head and let go and watch it flutter down. Very quickly about half a dozen other boys did it too. Teacher came out and saw this going on and told off those doing it... only 6 of the lads had decided to write their names on first. So what she saw was one little lad throwing paper around and a group nicely getting on with colouring... so guess who got into trouble, while the others sat there looking innocent and realising they better not continue with the game. Event only lasted about 2 minutes in total...
Talking to dd1 that seemed to happen to this little lad quite a bit. He was the one who just continued a minute too long, or that little bit too far.

On what your dd says, does she have a strong imagination? Because my dd2 has a wonderful imagination. This means at that age she would take something small and blow it up into a huge affair involving up to the whole school.
So (eg) playing a game of tag. She's the chaser, grabs friend by arm. Friend says "ow you pinched me!" They continue playing.
But dd2's imagination kicks in. She thinks "will she tell on me? then I'll get into trouble..."
By the time dd2 is home, her imagination has told her that her friend told on her for pinching and she got in trouble... she was sent to the head... she was told she couldn't do something in the afternoon... she can't have lunch time for the rest of the week... probably the rest of the term if she tells it again.
Luckily I had a friend with a child in the same form that I could phone up and say "dd2 says she was in trouble for pinching, can you see what happened"
And the answer would come "they were playing tag and dd2 grabbed X to catch her and X said she pinched, and dd2 said sorry, and they carried on playing. End of story."
She's grown out of it now thankfully!

Abitannoyedatthis DD doesn't pinch at home, and I've never witnessed her pinching anyone else, so perhaps she is influenced in school. (She does have a slightly troublesome friend who she spends a lot of time with in school). However, I wouldn't say pinching was particularly abnormal behavior for children that age if I'm honest.

DeWe Yes DD is a very imaginative child. The teacher also suggests what you're suggesting. The tag situation you mentioned sounds really common for DD. It's exactly situations like that her teacher raised with me, that perhaps DD exaggerates (not necessarily intentionally), the situation to me once she's home. The teacher also said that perhaps she doesn't praise DD enough in class which could be a factor she felt.

Abitannoyedatthis - I was badly bullied in two secondary schools, my last I had to leave which obviously had a non effect for my whole future. My son when aged 3 was also targeted by a certain older lad in his nursery class for a long time. He would come home with blood drawn from teeth marks!!

Being bullied or having your child targeted is a very distressful and upsetting experience. However, it is worth taking time and stepping back to look at situations individually and all situations are different and should be dealt with in ways to suit.

I understand what you are saying about edpsychs being a big help in bullying situations - but I do not think it is necessary here at all. (the child isn't a bully!) The school are happy and everything has been done right so far. At this moment I really do not think such drastic options should be taken, especially so young. I remember back to primary school and there was a big pinching phase amongst quite a few children - I don't think it is strange.

If matters get a lot worse and the school become unhappy or a number of parents start to complain then something can be done then. But I really don't think that is the case with this young girl, from what I've read she just seems to be exploring feelings, emotions, reactions and her mother and the school are teaching her right from wrong. This seems like a case that shouldn't be worried about at all! I think bettyhazel has been left feeling anxious and nervous by a parent at the school and just needed a bit of reassurance! xxx