malicious daughter...now a teen and getting worse.

[northernshepherdess]

Hi,
I could really do with some advice. I have an 18ds recently left home, a 13dd, a 8dss, and a 2dd.
The problem child is the 13 year old and believe me, this is not a new teen behavior.
I'm quite a submissive character, and I have tried discussion, reasoning and punishment but Im still getting it wrong somewhere because things are getting worse and worse.
She is a bully. She's doing it to everyone prob 98% of interaction with others,at school and home.
She criticises everything and everyone 100% of the time and describes everyone with a negative comment like "you know that girl called xxxxxx who loves herself and think she's IT" or " xxxxxx, the fat one who's always stuffing food in her face".
She is always right
She will do things to people because she thinks people are always trying to be better than her etc.
She won't eat what I give her, and demands something else. One day she only likes toast, the next day she doesn't like toast. One day she hates kfc and I apparently "know it" the next she's gettin all the left over chicken for her school lunch!
She targets people for things that she thinks others are thinking...for example, she pinned childline and told them she had her head dunked in the toilets by two unknown people at the demand of someone else, then when I pointed out your head couldn't reach the water and pushed on how she managed to not see them she said they tripped her and her head landed in the toilet, then when I pointed out the school would see who'd done it from the cameras outside, she said it was in a different corridor, then it was two boys and not girls and so on... This is a daily experience with her.
She used to sit and give filthy looks to my partners mum who had motorneurones (now passed away) because she once asked her not to put her feet on the sofa 2 years before. 13 year old would just scowl and ignore her knowing mil couldn't do anything but take it as she couldn't move much of her body or speak well.
My partner once told her off and she went into school crying and saying she was scared because he was a drug dealer.
She hid a pen set her grandad bought her and accused someone she was mad at of stealing it.
She took and hid someone's phone because she had a falling out with someone.
She bullies all the children in the house and sets them up to get into trouble...for example, she blocked the stairs so my 2dd couldn't go to the toilet. When the 2dd started screaming, she acted like she didn't know what was going on and said she was just walking up the stairs and I might have believed her if I hadn't been watching. Then my 13dd started mouthing off at me demanding I punish the 2 year old for screaming for no reason.
She is insanely jealous of my stepson and will set him up too. She hates the sound of anyone eating, breathing, snoring, bouncing their feet...and everything he does is a massive target.
If he leans on her when the car goes round the corner, she literally goes mental. She accuses him of doing things on purpose because she "knows he is" and demands he be punished. If not punished (we now have to watch every interaction) she will make sure he gets a good "accidental" elbow to the ribs. And then, will argue about how it was an accident and we are treating her unfairly.
She controls every aspect of the games they play, from the opening of the box, the organising of the game, where "lost" pieces should go and how they are stored, the rules, and the order of packing up.
My 18ds was infuriated with her, the 8dss and 2dd have started hitting and 2dd screams and shouts at her as soon as there is interaction.
She destroys all her friendships because she has to be right and in control of everything and is spiteful and devious if she doesn't get it her way.
She doesn't accept any responsibility and we have all started to fear her retaliation.
My partner is worried she will affect his 8 year old as his mother is very very temperamental.
And we are both worried about the effects on our 2dd as the 13dd is always the centre of attention...or else!
Seriously at my wits end because this isn't most of the time...its all the time... If she isn't directly being nasty, she's setting you up for her next game.
She is cruel and spiteful, critical of everything without exception from colour, clothes shoes, looks, behavior, everything!
Any advice would be appreciated.

I'm not surprised you feel like that. Noticed all the above is about what she does. What do you, partner and school do about this behaviour?

That sounds very worrying and very, very hard work. To be honest, I think her behaviour sounds pretty extreme and I suspect that you will need some external help to get to the bottom of it. Have you thought about family therapy? Even if you have to go private, I think it would probably be a very good investment. The repercussions of her behaviour not being addressed could be absolutely massive, especially if it is beginning to effect the younger children and your relationship with your partner.

You need external help, her behaviour is appalling and not normal. There may be reasons behind it (maybe she's very unhappy or something?) but it needs to be stopped. I'd start by going to the gp - make clear how damaging this is to your family life and to the siblings. She needs a referral to camhs really.

Counselling? She sounds disturbed about something.. Poor you.

What punishment do you use when she misbehaves?

She sounds very unhappy. You have to concentrate on the positive. Praise her especially if its practically impossible to! Ignore the little stuff. I bet you commented on the chicken for example, it must have been maddening, but in being overwhelmed by every niggling stupid thing she does you're putting up barriers.

She sounds incredibly unhappy and jealous and is laying it off on everyone else and it is having s grim effect.

I too think that getting counselling for her is critical. I would go to the gp myself first and discuss it with the gp, then take her.

Not sure how family therapy works, but it sounds to me as though she may need separate therapy as well as the family one.

Her older brother might have useful views?

You need to keep a diary of her behaviour, including what behaviour management strategies you use and how she responds to them. Take the diary to the GP without her and ask for a referral to the Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service (CAMHS).

The waiting list is usually weeks or months so keep the diary going in the meantime.

Be prepared for them to assess her for a neurodevelopmental disorder like Asperger's Syndrome and for them to look very hard at your parenting and whether she has a secure attachment to you.

She sounds very unhappy and clearly needs some help in order to grow up and function successfully. This is important so don't be fobbed off by anyone suggesting that this is normal teenage behaviour. If you're sure it isn't, be very clear about that.

I was a bit like this at 13, I bullied 'friends' and pushed people away by being horrible, I'm too ashamed to put here what I did, and used to say.. I hated people breathing, eating , snoring loud..I was vile when I had to share a room with my brothers when we went to stay with my Dad on weekends , i used to punch them and pinch them rotten.. I hated everyone.. I was definitely difficult, Mother had a few partners who had dc, I was vile to them.... Ive had alot of therapy as an adult as I don't really fit in and can't form relationships.. it all comes back to the terrible relationship I had/have with my mother .. she never showed any love , put me down and was jealous of anything positive I had in my life.. and never praised anything I did or achieved .. (there is alot more to it than that, but don't want to put it down here) I'm not suggesting you have a poor relationship with your dd.. I'm just sharing why I think I was this way.. there is a reason for this behavior.. she is upset and so angry

Thank you everyone. She has had a very distant relationship with her dad and I was with a new partner from her being less than one year old until she was about 7, when we separated.
I was abused in my family circles as a child and I tend to back out of confrontations.
She used to get up in the night and punch her brother, who has asperGers, and she did it for weeks. He was trying to persuade us that we had a ghost and was genuinely getting very upset and tired. Even after a family discussion she never said a word. Then one day she burst out laughing and admitted she'd been doing it prob for months by then because, when he was asleep, he made a click noise when he snored!
We phone school before we punish her to warn them of the retaliation. They have caught her out with a few things now too.
I have heard that asd are different in girls than boys.
A diary is a good idea.
I know there are little things like the chicken...but every food stuff is like that.
Everything is about her.
She targets everyone. She has a bit of a novelty factor at first with people but then they wear off and she target them.
We have to be careful what we say around her because she uses it against us.
I'd said to my partner once about a lady I'd met not watching her children properly when they were outside. Later I told her off for something during a barbecue with them and the people who were related to them, friends of ours.
When it was quiet, she said to the room...my mum said she doesn't look after her kids properly... She then looked at me and smiled and carried on messing with some toys like nothin had happened. It's awful.
School have made referal to a specialist councillor for her.

Forgot, no we didn't talk about chicken.
I only talk to her about being nice to people and not hurting or teasing them.
If she was right with people, I could handle the rest

I have no direct experience of this but could she also have undiagnosed sn?

It sounds terrible OP...really awful but as someone else said, she sounds extremely unhappy and you need to focus on that now rather than anything else. Is it possible she has been abused?

No. I'm confident she hasn't been abused in any way, by any on I've been very protective over the children because of my own upbringing - aside from the absence of her dad. I don't go out, nor on holiday. I don't have babysitters or relatives to watch them.

It might be worth you reading some of Tony Attwood's publications about how girls with Aspergers Syndrome present. They can disguise an awful lot and are often left undiagnosed or misdiagnosed.

A lot of what you write in your posts could point to AS. There are some aspects which wouldn't be typical but the root of this behaviour could be AS.

she needs individual therapy and you all need to go to family therapy. you really need to get to the root of the problem before she becomes more destructive.

Has she always been like this, or did it start at a certain age?

The not-being-touched thing makes me think of my nephew, who has Asperger's. At 18, he is bright and clever and lots of things, like touching, are easier for him now.

I echo what everyone else says, it sounds like she has some form of ASD (the intolerance to noises etc). Good luck the book mentioned above sounds good.

I would be wary about diagnosing like this. There could be lots of reasons for this behaviour. But it is obvious the OP needs outside help.

18ds has aspergers. Both my parents have special needs and I would have put my dad in an aspy bracket. My brothers and one of my sisters all display the same as my 18ds. But, my sister and 13dd are too alike. My sister has the same extreme behavior, selfish, targets, fabricates etc. She has had a child removed from her care, and has just had another.
She was never stopped. She was a difficult baby. My dd was a very easy child until 3ish. Will read the info provided. School are referring to mental health so will wait...