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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

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Original poster

Please please advise on child at group who scratches and hits constantly

66 replies

someothermother · 15/07/2006 11:00

I have changed name for this. I am involved with a toddler group and an 18 m old there is constantly hitting and scratching other children, usually younger ones who are at floor level. Obviously this is upsetting for everyone. Child's mother asked me for advice before she brought the child to the group, and I advised her to follow her dd everywhere and physically stop her before she can do it. This is not happening. Mother is chatting to someone else and the little girl wanders off and hurts another child. Other mothers in tears - one little girl was hurt 4 times in one session with dreadful scratches on her face, one scratch near her eye.

I spoke to the mother again about making sure she is with her daughter and she said she doesn't need to be right next to her, because she can tell when she's going to do it, but that she wasn't watching at that particular moment. She also said "And I take her off into the corner when she has done it" (Time Out style, and she also speaks to her firmly and tells her not to do it)

I don't think this is working and I want to ring her and say that she needs to stay right next to her daughter and prevent this happening until this stage has passed. Is this a reasonable request? Has anyone any other ways of dealing with it? Thanks so much in advance, I am feeling very upset and stressed by the whole situation and don't want to make things worse, but feel that it's impossible as it is. I understand she probably cannot stop every single scratch or bite, but I saw it happen 4 times myself and I was only in the room for about 10 minutes.

OP posts:

MumtoBen · 15/07/2006 20:11

Just to clarify, I am not threatening to expel her. Those of the rules of the group, which is run by 2 paid staff.

I would gladly give her some suggestions about how to discipline her child, but don't think this would be well received. She didn't help me calm down my distressed son who sat sobbing in my arms for ages and was then terrified for the rest of the time when a child came near him. I didn't even say anything negative to her or asked the group to kick her out. Was too busy worrying about my own child.

southeastastra · 15/07/2006 20:17

don't the staff tell her off?

MumtoBen · 15/07/2006 20:21

They took her to one side. But I don't know what they said.

But there was another incident with him later on with another child.

I'm not looking forward to going back next week.

Pollyanna · 15/07/2006 20:21

I have an 18month old dd who is just like this (you're not talking about me are you?) It is a nightmare taking her anywhere and I often end up leaving early. She scratches and hits for no reason. There is no trigger and no logical reason why she picks on the babies she does. Time out certainly doesn't work, the only thing that does is picking her up and taking her away from the scene. Putting her down again is difficult as she goes straight back to the baby and attacks it again. I think the only way forward is for the woman to stay with the baby all the time. It is tough as she won't get to speak to anyone, but that is less stressful than your baby attacking other babies imo.

southeastastra · 15/07/2006 20:23

do the staff get involved and actually play with the children?

MumtoBen · 15/07/2006 20:27

I am sympathetic to parents to children that bite or hit, as I would be MORTIFIED if it happened to me. But I want to see the child disciplined properly.

I have seen my child attacked by other children at other times. Some of the mothers seem glad their child is doing this to mine. With a smile on their face as they sit and watch.

MumtoBen · 15/07/2006 20:29

The staff don't get involved with playing. They tend to watch for any incidents or talk to the Mums whilst watching.

southeastastra · 15/07/2006 20:33

i would talk to them about it, they should be more involved, they should be there to stop incidents not just watch for them

southeastastra · 15/07/2006 20:35

(if the mother can't or won't)

NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 20:36

Many parents really wouldn't want staff getting too involved in these things. At the groups I go to, the staff don't generally have very much to do with the kids ... well, they might play with them, but it's not their job to discipline other people's kids!

We have a slightly troublesome kid at one of the groups I go to, he starts out playing, but gets a bit too rough (nothing as bad as these other examples, by any means). And the staff are trying to help, but the mum is very pregnant, and her English isn't good. Her French is ok, so I've spoken to her a bit.

Original poster

someothermother · 15/07/2006 20:43

So, in general, am I right in saying that:

we feel that the mother staying right with the child at all times is the only way to prevent her child from hurting others

that it is reasonable of me to ask that she do this

that if she does not agree to this, then.... what? that she and her dd not be allowed to attend the group any more?

What if she agrees to it and then there are still some incidents? How many incidents are reasonable, if she has agreed to stay with her dd the whole time? If children are still getting hurt, can she still attend the group?

OP posts:

southeastastra · 15/07/2006 20:43

18 months is very young

Original poster

someothermother · 15/07/2006 20:46

I agree 18 months is very young. She has not been in groups of children her own age lately either. I think allowances need to be made for her. BUT I don't feel I can allow any more children to be hurt.

OP posts:

NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 20:46

I'd ask her to leave the group whenever her child has hurt more than once in a session. Or maybe twice? Pick a number, anyway.

If she's upsetting kids, and you don't manage to stop her doing this, then you might ask her to take a few weeks off from the group, particularly as the mother is reasonable, so it's not like it's a situation where the mother is, say, hitting her kid at the group, or something like that, which is likely to continue forever, iyswim.

Asking her to take a break from the group is less hurtful than banning, and might well fix the problem ...

Original poster

someothermother · 15/07/2006 20:49

Would you, really? If it happens more than once?

Yes I agree asking to take a break much better than banning. I would not consider banning her.

I know it may seem terribly petty, but what would you do in that situation about money? Would you return her entrance money?

For one reason and another she is having a tough time right now. It makes it all much harder. I am having a tough week too and this is really getting to me.

OP posts:

NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 20:52

If you like the mum, could you have coffee with her or something? See her somewhere else to chat about this?

The leaving thing is just what I (think I) would do if my kid was harming other kids. I think punishments should be appropriate (related) and sudden. Picking up a child who wants to stay and leaving with them is appropriate and fast and the right punishment.

I don't know what I'd do about fees. Do people pay per session? Are you full? Can you split the difference? Do people normally stay for the whole session?

southeastastra · 15/07/2006 20:52

it really is a hard one, 18 months is so young, children are just really interested in themselves at that age. if the children are at floor level, are all of the mums sitting around or sitting on the floor with them.

MumtoBen · 15/07/2006 20:53

If she agrees to stay with the child and doesn't and the child hurts other children then I don't think she should be allowed to attend.

The child IS very young and therefore it is the responsibility of the mother to ensure the child behaves. It does not sound like she is even trying.

I think you are being very reasonable. Just think about the impact on the children being attacked.

NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 20:54

Yeah, I agree that it is young, SEastra, and it sounds like the mum means well, but you can't exactly have a child running around upsetting the other kids, can you. I don't think scratching at this age is indicative of agression or anything, really, except a bad habit.

Has the mum tried paying loads of attention to the victim and ignoring her kid? That's a good trick for this sort of behaviour, in case it's an attention-getting thing.

Original poster

someothermother · 15/07/2006 21:10

NQC, I would have said we were friends outside of the group, but something else happened this week, and she is angry with me. It's all very hard.

Yes the children are on the floor but the mothers sit around on chairs mostly, or wander about. We have quite a nice little set up usually where it's safe to leave them while you chat, so it's all quite relaxed. I suppose we are lucky to have not had a problem like this before.

OP posts:

southeastastra · 15/07/2006 21:11

18 months is a bit young to just let them get on with it

NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 21:15

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Original poster

someothermother · 15/07/2006 21:35

Thanks NQC, I will do.

I know you just forgot, but would you mind not mentioning my usual name on this thread please? It's not a huge deal, but I am quite recognisable on here and because I'm talking about another family, I wanted to keep some anonymity while talking about this, for them as much as for me.

I've asked MN Towers to delete your post NQC, I hope you don't mind.

OP posts:

Squarer · 15/07/2006 21:42

Someother... Can't add anything more, other than I hope you do find a solution that works

NotQuiteCockney · 15/07/2006 21:44

Oh, sh*t, sorry! Totally forgot.

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