Please can you help me sort out 2.5yo bedtimes and early starts?

[sleepcrisis]

Hi everyone. This is not the first time I've been on here about DS's sleep!

It started a few weeks ago with early waking and we started to use a Gro clock and star/reward chart, which worked for a week and we managed to get wake up back to 6.50am. Plus he seemed to 'get' the start chart and was very excited by it.

Things have really deteriorated and I've had so many theories and ideas that I can't see the wood for the trees anymore and have no idea whether he's over or under tired.

What is really getting me down is bedtime. We used to love bedtime, we'd snuggle up on the rocking chair and read 2 stories with milk, and then he'd ask to get into his cot and settle nicely. If anything I had to go in once to resettle him. He used to go into his cot around 7 and be asleep within 15 minutes. If he wasn't so tired he'd sing to himself and drop off eventually. And he used to wake at 6.50am every day, regardless of bedtime.

Now, he fights bedtime, he doesn't want to read books, he throws them, asks for a different one, tries to get up and run around, grabbing toys etc. I try to be firm and eventually he settles down for the end of the book. But then when he goes into his cot he is wired, jumping up and down, calling for us etc. I would be happy to leave him but his trick is to throw his comforter out of the cot, knowing that we won't make him go to sleep without it (this is out of the question, I had a comforter my whole childhood and know how important it is for him. He takes it everywhere). I leave it 5-10 mins before going in to give it back but he just perks up as soon as he sees me. It has been taking an hour for him to finally drop off. sometimes more.

I'd be inclined to think that he isn't tired enough, given that he still naps. But the later he goes to sleep, the harder he is to settle and the earlier he wakes up in the morning. Usually around 5.45. If by magic we can get him to fall asleep by 7.15 he'll usually sleep through until 6.30 at least.

As for the nap, he loves it, he goes down without fuss, and I've been trying to wake him after 1hr 15 but of course having shorter nights sleep, it's becoming impossible to wake him in the afternoon. Yesterday he sobbed and sobbed, trying so hard to get back under the covers and back to sleep. Then we have tantrums all afternoon as he's so tired, all he wants to do is watch tv, he's demanding and sulky and then he perks up at 5 pm wanting to play play play. He's not so bad if we manage to get him out of the house but no amount of exercise seems to help towards getting him sleepy at bedtime.

I'm at the end of my tether, pregnant and dreading the prospect of having two sleep fighters on my hands next year. he was a terrible sleeper as a baby and I'm anticipating another like him!

So, what do I do? Cut the nap? It seems crazy to cut the nap while he's walking around with bags under his eyes most of the time. But how the hell do I get him to relax at bedtime?! What more can I do other than no tv, bath, milk and stories?!

Please help!!

PS star chart seems to have become boring. Not that interested. and from the word go we said he'd get an extra star if he was good at bedtime but that has never worked. mornings we can handle - despite waking early he'll lie back down til the sun comes up if we go and tell him to. The problem is that means we're up even if he's not, and that's what we want to avoid! we need our extra hour sleep too!

Sorry that is so long. If you manage to get through it in the next hour, do I wake him from his nap today or let him sleep as long as he wants?!

I am not really sure how you can sort it, I would be inclined to just leave him to it and see if he goes to sleep without the comforter, then put it back when he is asleep so if he wakes up in the night he will have it. Maybe if that happens once he will not throw it out the next night?

I have also got a 2 year old and a new baby and I would think long and hard about taking the nap away as at the moment I really need that nap time to have a bit of a break during the day, otherwise I think I would go mad with exhaustion! My DD was a reluctant napper and when she was clearly getting tired after lunch I had to just put her in the cot and let her cry. Now she usually just plays with her soft toys until she falls asleep.

I don't want to get rid of the nap, believe me! But he'll be nearly 3 when the baby is due so I have to face up to the fact he may not need it by then!

I'll try being tougher with the comforter tonight but I really need him to wind down before he gets into bed which is not happening at the moment. Some people have suggested taking the side off the cot but I would have thought he'd just get up and start playing!

I've decided to let him sleep this nap until 230, which would give him 1hr 45. He needs to catch up somewhere, but I just hope it doesn't impact on bedtime too heavily...

One of my friends was having this problem with her 2.5 yr old too and she got this 'turtle night sky constellations' thing (you can google it) and she said it really helped. I think it is like a light projector, I guess it might help to calm him, I was thinking of getting one for my DD.

thanks for the suggestion, but I think it will get him more hyped up. I tried with a little battery operated nightlight last night and it ended in disaster. he thought it was disco time :)

I think dropping the nap could work in terms of getting a longer night sleep from him. Perhaps combine that withearlier bed time for two weeks and see what happens? As you say he will drop the nap soon anyway better to transition him now before baby comes.

I think you might be right, but I'm a bit worried about the short term with him being so overtired. Today I let him sleep til he woke after 1hr 45 mins and he was much easier to put to bed. He was asleep by 720. But I'm not holding out much hope for a decent morning wake up call!

OP what time does he usually take his nap? If he typically goes down before 1pm then I'd say without hesitation that its too early & this is what is causing his early waking.

I had a very similar situation with my ds, he started fighting bedtime & waking earlier, I too thought he wasnt tired enough so I cut the nap shorter thinking it would help - but all it did was make him foul & grumpy, & he ended up overtired then started waking at night as well as getting up even earlier.

In the end I discovered he did still need his nap, but he needed it a bit later. So I pushed it 15mins later per week (slowly so he didnt get overtired) & we ended up doing something like this:

Up: 6.30-7
Nap: 1.30/2 - 4pm latest (I would wake him)
Bed: 8pm

Unfortunately, at this age, if they still need a decent nap they arent going to need to go to bed at 7pm anymore. If you try, then you just get the shenanigans.

For us, it was the lesser evil - ok he was up an hour later but he was well rested & happy, woke at a decent time & I got a 2hr break in the afternoon. And he settled to sleep with zero fuss at bedtime. Much better than the alternative.

From around age 2.5 he then started to have the odd day where he slept in late & didnt need a nap. On those days he'd be in bed at around 6-6.30pm.

Now he's 3.4, still naps around twice a week from 2-4pm with 8pm bedtime, the rest of the time he has no nap, bed at 6.30pm & sleeps 12hrs most nights. So it really is only a temporary thing until they drop the nap & then you get your evenings back!

I would say your ds probably does still need his nap right now, but if you try the same approach & slowly shift it later, letting him have a decent length nap & accepting bedtime may also need to go a touch later in the short term, you should find his early waking sorts itself & he may then soon start having days without a nap. When this happens, dont assume he doesnt need to nap anymore, just offer one whenever he seems tired & he will self regulate. Hth.x

I have a ds the same age. I think you have two choices at this age, neither ideal. You skip the nap, have a grumpy afternoon, a hyper evening, an easy bedtime, a night waking. Or you encourage the nap, have a pleasant afternoon and evening, a protracted or late bedtime, possibly a better nights sleep. Rock and hard place. You either make the most of the nap or you make the most of the easy bedtime because ime, at this age, you can't have both! And this goes on until they are genuinely ready to drop the nap and go the day without getting overtired.

Opinions about when to drop the nap varies. Here in France it's normal for 5 year olds to nap. It works because the French eat with their children and much later than in the UK, so an 830pm or 900pm bedtime is the norm. In the UK it's unusual for a child over three to nap, but the children's tea at 5.30pm and bed at 7pm makes up for it.

So ime you can't win. You are stuck in nap transition hell for a while and all I can say is that this too shall pass. Ds1 is 6 now, hasn't napped since he was 3, and goes to bed easily at 8pm no worries. I'm currently skipping naps for his 3 yr old brother, putting up with grumpy evenings, and getting him to bed early, it's what works for us as a family.

Actually that was a lie in my last paragraph! Ds1 didn't nap for a year after he turned three, then when he started going to nursery every afternoon, they always made them nap after lunch right up to age five. Ds 2 was still younger and really needed the nap. So we just went French and had a later bedtime of 8.30 or 9.00pm.

I've been going through exactly the same with DS 2.9.
I found that he's gradually dropping the nap now and sleeping better at night. It's hellish - I do sympathise. I found that putting him to bed v late one night (after he'd had an afternoon nap) eg 9.30/10pm had the effect of resetting him ifykwim. Though it did mean a hellish evening followed by hellish day followed by ok night. It is just a transitionary phase - it will pass. Maybe you should follow the French advice up thread. We found that his sleep vastly improved when we spent time in France and followed our French friends' lead. Suddenly had miracle sleeeping! Actually DS only started to improve once I accepted he might not fit the norm and that he would only sleep 9 hours at night if he's had a nap in the day. Now if he doesn't nap then he sleeps 10.5. When I relaxed about it, he improved. Best of luck.

You could try to move bedtime from 7 to 8? I have e two years old, she sleeps for 12 hours during the night and 2-3 hours nap in the afternoon, but never went to bed before 8:30, she isn't sleepy yet.

We had a phase of big time drama at 2.5 with DD1 -- turned out she wanted not to have a nappy at night. And it was affecting the whole bedtime routine. So could it be that he's ready to move out of a cot? Agree with 8pm bedtime too. DD1 did rather inconveniently drop her nap just before DD2 was born (was 2y 9mo)... Now DD2 is having minor bedtime dramas and I found out yesterday that she really wanted the door left open a crack so she could see the light and wasn't worried about being trapped in the room (although she can open the door). Hope it works out!

thanks for these replies.

I am leaning towards pushing bedtime later and letting him sleep as long as he wants at lunch. My only hesitation is that recently, the later he goes to sleep the earlier he rises, so I thought he was over tired. well he was definitely overtired. But that may be because he wasn't napping long enough, and a build up of early starts was becoming a problem (its been going on a few weeks).

Yesterday, i let him sleep for as long as he wanted at lunch, he was easy (well, easier) to put down at 7pm and he slept til 6am. I told him to go back to sleep as the sun wasn't up, and he then slept until 730! So finally he's caught up on some sleep, now might be a good time to implement a change.

omama he usually sleeps around 1245 so it won't be hard to push that til 1pm or later.

The other thing we are realising is that his bowels are often to blame! I don't know what we can do about this, but he seems hardwired to waking to poo in his nappy at 6am. The only days he sleeps later (til 7) are the days he doesn't poo. THe next day of course is followed by a 5.30am poonami. he is potty trained but very rarely poos in the day, so I am trying to limit fruit to the mornings in the hope that he'll start pooing in the evening before bed. The only problem is that he is a fruit monster and cries if he doesn't get fruit after his dinner :(

We've just had a really tough bedtime and I'm feeling at rock bottom.

He napped today from 1.30-2.30 (he took a while to go down). Didn't manage to wear him out that much this afternoon but we did pop out and he played non stop.

I aimed for a 7.30 bedtime and he seemed ok during stories/milk. But he's only just dropped off and we spent nearly an hour going in and out to see to him. He wasn't crying very much, but he kept throwing out his comforter. I lost it at one point and took it away from him and he just got hysterical, I had to give it back after a few minutes. He kept asking to be tucked in despite being so sleepy he could hardly open his eyes. It's like a compulsion to stand up and drop the toy over the edge.

Its driving me insane knowing I have a deadline to crack this before the baby is born. I do have 3 months but it seems like a huge task.

I think I'm going to try not giving him a nap tommorrow and see what happens but I don't know if I've got the energy to do a whole day with no one around to ease the load. He's so full on. Plus we have swimming which tires him out.

I also want to try putting him into a single bed but if the excitement of that doesn't keep him in bed I really can't bear the thought of him jumping out of bed every 5 minutes for an hour.

sorry for the vent. just feel drained and fed up.

Hey sleepcrisis I have a 2 yr 10 month old. I also have the same problem in that he wakes up early around 6am. He goes to bed at 8pm but has a good nap during the day.

I have found that cutting the nap means he refuses to go to bed and wakes up during the night. I too have been trying to wake him early from his nap (he sleeps around 3 hours - long I know) but he is then in horrendous form, I've found that sleep breeds sleep if he is left to wake himself up then he's in great form. He may go it bed later but it's less stressful.

We have been trying to cut down nap but It's very hit and miss.

Have you tried just letting him sleep as long as possible during the lunchtime nap? Could it be he's overtired

Sorry sleepcrisis just read your last post. My son was rocked to sleep until he was 2 ( we were crazy I know ) had dc2 in jean and decided no more.

We left him in his cot to scream. Took 4 hours first day and less each day. After 2 weeks he didn't bother. You need to ingnore all stalling tactics and don't go back in. It seems cruel but your going t have a new baby that will need your attention.

When I had this problem I cracked it by staying sat in the doorway with a book so my child could see me but I didn't acknowledge her at all. When she'd throw her 'comforter' out I calmly put it back in her cot without acknowledging her and went back to my place. For the first couple of nights it was hell. Third night she went to sleep earlier than the first two nights, fourth night I moved slightly further out of sight, fifth night even further, sixth night I could go back downstairs about 10 mins after. It takes patience and dedication - you can't backtrack or you go back to square one.

It's basically a phase I think but if you allow it to escalate into a bad sleeping habit then you're just stuffed for longer.

This too will pass.

Thanks for the replies. Scooby, I think you're right about te later bed time and nap as others have suggested but given that I need to be in bed by and eat dinner in between, an 8pm bedtime is far from ideal :( and thatks for the suggestion but I just won't leave him to cry. We got this far without it!

Enb76 - I know what you mean about it be oming habit but we're already there. This has been a tactic of his for over a year but before recently (last month or so) he's only do it once for one last kiss which I could handle. I basically do what you suggested but I stay outside the room with the door shut. I go in silently and give it back, and tuck him in. Did you do it without touching dd? Because if I just throw the toy back inhe cries, it's me tucking him in tht he wants. No idea why all of a sudden. He does have a cough but that's recent, this has been goin on much longer than that. So do you think wing in the room would make much difference? It seems like a step back, and t b he asks me to leave once I've tucked him in!

I don't know, I found if she knew and could see I was there but that I wouldn't take any notice she gave up. I put her comforter back in her hand but didn't tuck her in. The first two nights were mad and how I coped (lone parent) I don't know. I remember saying to myself over and over in my head can't give in, can't give in. When she was really tiny I never let her cry to sleep but figured that this wasn't distress, this was rage at not getting her own way. She's 5 now. Goes to bed at 7:30, sleeps until 7.