alternative to time out for stubborn toddler

[NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown]

DS is 2.9 and like both his parents he's independent, strong-willed and doesn't like being told what to do! I had a very strict upbringing and I'm determined to do things differently...so I'm looking for a strategy to deal with persistent misdemeanors that works but isn't too harsh!

at the moment we ask DS once to stop doing something (right now he's into standing/jumping on furniture, rattling things, being agressive), then we give him a warning (usually that he'll be removed from the situation/room if he continues) and then we remove him, unless he's violent and then he gets removed immediately. it's a new technique because we've been quite inconsistent in the past (the transition from baby to toddler threw us somewhat) but there's some behaviours that we're resorting to time out in his cot for and I really want to find an alternative (my reasons briefly are that I feel time out isolates children and doesn't help them to deal with the feelings they are experiencing, it just makes them feel that they are wrong/bad, I'm talking from personal experience here, being ignored/berated whenever I showed an emotion, I wasn't given the tools to deal with them but instead shut away, it's just not something I want to be doing - I can totally see why parents want to and do use it but it's not for me. I'm also concerned at some point it won't work any more because he'll be able to get out of the cot, I don't want him getting hurt and I don't want to end up locking him in his room - there's no way he'd stay there voluntarily).

I have used it because sometimes I need a minute or two to calm down or because DS has lost control and someone is going to get hurt. For example I ask him to sit on the sofa rather than standing. He sits but then immediately stands again, I say 'this is your warning, please sit on your bottom or you'll be removed from the sofa', he does it but a few minutes later he's standing/jumping again (I let him bounce on his knees but not his feet) - I say 'now I'm taking you off the sofa' I do so and he repeatedly pushes past me to get back on it. I take him off, he gets back up. it becomes either a game or a battle of wills and he's really bloody strong and heavy! I feel at this point that I need to put him in his cot before he hurts me or by manhandling him to keep him off it I'm going to hurt him. We often get into this situation where he'll continue almost compulsively to do the thing I've asked him to stop doing/touching etc. He'll even start shouting 'I WANT to hit you!' whilst hitting me repeatedly when I've asked him to stop. Perhaps because of my own upbringing being hit or repeatedly ignored pushes my buttons and I feel the situation will only stop if I remove him from the room for a few minutes so I don't lash out and smack him (I never have and don't intend to but the urge is there sometimes when I'm ignored or hurt) and calm myself down so I can help him with HIS emotions.

I'm starting to be able to deal with tantrums quite well I think. I never give in to the reason for the tantrum but when I see it's calming a little I will ask if he needs help to calm down but before that I will tell him I'm there for him when he's stopped screaming and I ignore the behaviour whilst staying close by - he's even starting to ask for help to calm down mid-tantrum so I feel confident we're on top of that.

Sometimes I feel he's pushing the boundaries because he needs a good cry/tantrum but I don't know how to get in there and help him when he's pushing, pushing, pushing - he goes kind of manic - and this cot thing - I really want to stop removing him but he won't give me any personal space/seems like he can't physically stop himself doing something he shouldn't over and over when he gets worked up.

DH and I are attending a parenting course and thought it would help us find ways to deal with his behaviour and stop using the cot for time out, but it doesn't seem to be helping (we talk about the problems we encounter and why our children might behave a certain way but we don't really discuss what to do about it) - I'm thinking if we have a simple set of rules and a straightforward way of dealing with them being broken DS will get the message that we're united and mean business and will get bored of pushing boundaries...we're also trying to spend lots of one on one time playing with him and use descriptive praise everywhere possible but I really want to break this habit and find something gentle and consistent that works.

...so does anyone else have a willful and hyperactive child who compulsively touches things?? and if it is a cry for help with strong emotions, how do you get right in there and find out what's happening with them before you get on a journey to meltdown for everyone? I've long been wondering whether DS has a spectrum disorder/ADHD/sensory issue/dyspraxia - or is this just normal toddler stuff? (there's much more but not sure how relevant to this issue) - any help or experience appreciated

We never experienced anything like this with our DS, because mum was a nursery supervisor, later a teacher, and I was a voluntary helper in schools, and later a Teaching Assistant for twelve years, so we both knew enough to avoid bad behaviour or conflict. One of us, if not both was nearly always around to keep DS stimulated and entertained.

I feel cot or bed is unsuitable for 'time out', as it should be a place of comfort or refuge, not punishment, and it could lead to a reluctance to go to bed at night.

What sort of things does he have to play with, be creative with, and what activities do you do with him? We never had the radio or TV on, except when we were actually listening/watching with DS, and we would talk about things with him. If there is constant background noise, I think it can 'overload' a young child, and I hate it when I see parents with children in buggies, and the parent is constantly talking on the phone, ignoring the child.

Obviously, parents can't devote every moment of the day to their child, but the child needs enough stimulation or activities to amuse themselves when they are on their own. Does he have good construction toys (Duplo, and later Lego is the best); dolls, teddies, toy animals etc; board books (which may get sucked, but gently encourage him not to)? If possible give him sand, water, Playdough, but this can be difficult in a domestic situation, and again, might get eaten. A shallow bowl or tray with a few ice cubes might amuse him, and it doesn't hurt too much if they do go on the carpet!

Give him craft or art activities, but make sure he knows not to draw on walls or furniture. Safety scissors and magazines or catalogues to cut up, and plain paper or scrap-book with child-safe glue stick pictures down is a good activity, and preparation for school. (I have known Reception children cry because they didn't know how to cut out!) Also helping with cooking is good, if you can stand it!

Do you or DH do any musical activities? Singing or sharing piano or keyboard with a child can be enjoyable and productive.

I assume you take him for walks, to a park or somewhere safe and pleasant. This time of year you could collect colourful leaves, nuts, conkers, berries, etc, and if possible look them up in a nature book. Above all, talk about all these things and encourage his language development.

It may not be any of these 'disorders' you mention, just a strong willed child who needs plenty of activities.

Good luck.

Ferguson thanks so much for your lengthy reply, will try and answer all your questions if I can.

I agree the cot is unsuitable for punishment, what I'm saying (not very well) is that I'm using it out of sheer desperation and I want to stop, I don't want to be using time out at all...I'd really like to stop using punishments altogether but I'm at a loss as to what else to do.

We listen to music a lot, never have the TV on although he's been ill recently and we've watched a bit - he's now asking for it constantly and I'm saying no...so I do think boredom is a factor. I agree about constant background noise and in fact I prefer to have none but he seems to 'need' a lot going on, always has. It's always him asking for the radio or a CD on and me saying let's just have a bit of quiet, that's why I wonder about a sensory issue - I positively feel like my head will explode if there's too many noises (baby fussing, DS chatting/shouting, music, noisy toy for example) at once, I wonder if he's the same but needs more rather than less to feel calm.

He has no duplo at present (DD is getting some for Christmas that both will use) but has playmobil, wooden bricks, a train set, a ton of books that we read many times a day, a doll, teddies etc. I am reluctant with messy/water play because we don't have a garden and he won't stay in one place with it, it literally gets everywhere and I get cross, not least because we live in a rented flat. Also he hates getting his hands dirty, always stays well away from messy play at playgroup, although he loves water and I let him wash his toys or help washing up when I can.

We do all the crafts you mention but again he can't sit still, he ends up wandering around/climbing on furniture with pens/scissors in hand. I sit with him on my lap rather than on a separate chair at times but his sister (13months) is going through a clingy/jealous stage and cries to be picked up and wants to eat the pens! He gets at least 30 mins one-on-one play with DH or I every morning where we do stuff like drawing or dot-to-dots and we try and do more as and when we can without DD around.

I let him help in the kitchen wherever possible even if it's cutting mushrooms we don't need just to feel involved, but it usually leads to upset because he can't keep from fiddling with the microwave, toaster, stereo etc on the worktop bad gets cross when I won't let him help with everything (obviously not possible if Sharp or hot) he's really good at helping and loves the praise that goes with it of course..on a good day this works perfectly but obviously in reality I've got time constraints, baby fussing etc etc, it doesn't always go well!

DH and I don't play instruments but we have got a keyboard, I need to find an adapter for it if I can bare the noise! We sing together, dance, play with instruments yes, plus we go to playgroups or music groups a lot.

Yes we go to the park, haven't done a scavenger hunt for a while so will try that again, he learnt all the makes of car a while back so perhaps a book on birds or flowers to spot and learn might be good. He loves to chat and learn so that could work.

You could very well be right, he's very intense bless him, feels things so deeply. My concern has always been he seems to need so much stimulation to keep him happy but just that little too much and he's totally overwhelmed and can't get back down..there's such a thin line! Must read raising your spirited child again..I think he just needs much more than feels natural or comfortable to give, it's exhausting trying to keep up with his thirst for adventure because he takes himself somewhere I don't think he's ready for and seems to need new experiences constantly. Will persist with positive attention and lots of activities and see if behaviour improves. Thank you, lots to think about

Hi OP,

This is a great post from one of my fave parenting websites called ahaparenting written by a child psychologist and gives some alternatives to time outs

www.ahaparenting.com/BlogRetrieve.aspx?PostID=308761&A=SearchResult&SearchID=7349638&ObjectID=308761&ObjectType=55

I didn't believe in time outs before we had our dc - more from an academic perspective ( They are based on behaviourism theory - and the theory derived from experiments in rats! The human brain's complex wiring system means that you simply can't use the same techniques on a develping human brain than you can on a non complex rat brain) and there is now over 30 years research on why time outs don't work even when they seem to "work"

We now have 2 sons, age 7 and 3 (and now don't believe in TOs in reality!) have never done time outs - both boys are thriving behaviourally, educationally and socially.... The website is a great place to start but the 3 best books for alternatives to time outs if you don't want to do time outs anymore are:

1.how to talk...adele faber

1. Unconditional parenting...alfie kohn
2. peaceful parent, happy kids

forgot to say last book by laura markham

God advice above. The only thing I would add is to have a think in advance about what your absolute boundaries are and have as few rules as possible. We adopted an approach of 'as long as no one is getting hurt or things are getting damaged, anything goes' . Jumping and climbing on the sofa was one we let go. We completely baby proofed as well, so there were very few things or places that Ds could do damage, to himself or others, so the need for discipline just didn't arise so often.

hope things are going better for you. my key advice would be to give yourself a break. it sounds like you are trying so hard and beating yourself up over things you see as your fault. i have 3 ds and both my dh and i are qualified teachers. however ds1 has always been a real challenge . i read every book and did everything 'right' but realised after having ds2 and 3 and seeing friends with more than 1 dc that children have their own personality that you can not change. you can support and guide them but ultimately they are individuals. ds1 is now 7 and has sensory issues and if i had listened to the 'my child is perfect because i am such a good parent' brigade my guilt would have overwhelmed me. i am not saying that what you do does not effect your child but you need to work from where they are.

hope this makes sense!

this book by harvey karp, "happiest toddler on the block", has been amazing for me in dealing with all 3 of my dc, all of whom have very different personalities

www.amazon.co.uk/Happiest-Toddler-Block-Cooperative-Four-year-old/dp/0553384422

sesame, I'm on that website all the time..why didn't I think of that?! I will check out that article thank you.

I also didn't believe in time outs before having children and would never use the naughty step (or in fact the word/concept naughty) but in reality I find sometimes I need a chance to calm down. I think I'm living proof that time outs don't work - I have self-esteem issues and I have no idea how to deal with my emotions when they take over...which is why I'm asking for help I suppose. I'm trying to learn to deal with anger and frustration at the same time as teaching DS to!

thank you for the book recommendations, I've got 'how to talk' and have been bidding on 'unconditional parenting' on eBay but always missed out at the last minute..will get it and the other one too..just the fact it's by Laura Markham I know it will be my cup of tea.

thanks very much for your support

just wondering I think you're right. we now have 4 simple rules in place and will try and loosen up on the other stuff..it makes sense that if there's too many rules a child will either feel they can't do anything right or will rebel

Loris l think you're right. DS has been intense since birth or before and I know I can't change him..I just want to find ways to work with him and get the best for and from him

Mrsravelstein I've got that book, I found the whole 'toddlerease' thing a bit weird (especially as DS's speech has always been great, I think he'd think I was a bit odd if I started talking to him like that) but I will dip into it again

OP you sound like a great parent who is trying very hard.

I agree that some children are more challenging than others. For me, DS2 made me realise how easy DS1 and DD had been! I really recognise the bit about how telling him not to do something makes him want to do it even more! I also relate to the dilemma between wanting to be a relaxed not strict parent, but also wanting to have a well behaved child.

Try distracting him. If he is jumping on the sofa, avoid getting to the stand-off point by leaving the room before the situation arises, and going off to do a different more interesting activity elsewhere.

Just to reassure you, DS2 has become much easier since age 3. Hope you find the same!

The more exercise outside the better! Sorry can't type as an eleven year old is sitting on me... Having had three children under age 2 at one stage I can say we did very little messy play indoors, very little craft, very little sitting still. We danced to music indoors, did brio train set, hide and seek games, made jungle runs out of sofa cushions, but most of the time we went out and about. Children aren't good at sitting still. Also lots of toddler parent playgroups (3 times a week where I was) or visits to friends.

I think you are expecting him to be good when he's not at the age where children do sit still, except for very short bursts. Sofas are for climbing!

Hi NiceCupOfTeaAndASitDown,

I found I've learnt a lot from ahaparenting and these books about myself and why I felt time outs were so unjust when my parents did them to me as a child...when you say about you needing to calm down, when I'm in that situation, I say " I need to go to the kitchen and relax because I am finding xxx too much" There are some good other things to say in HTT....

One of the things that I got from the Laura markham book is when you find yourself getting angry, remind yourself this is not an emergency- physically smiling even when it's a false smile sends a message to your brain that this is not an emergency. Repeat to yourself - he is behaving like a child because he is a child , try to work out why what they are doing /saying is pushing your buttons and if you really feel that you can't stop yourself from starting to shout, hum!

I know it sounds strange but in the beginning when I was teaching myself these new tools, whenever I felt myself getting near to shouting , I would hum and DS1 would say " What's that noise mummy are you pretending to be a rhino?" and then the tension would diffuse..... what's great is now I rarely need to hum at all - which tells me how much I've developed over the years.

When I look at my relationship with my 2 boys and compare it to the relationship I have with my mum now ( who was a product of her time so thought she was doing the right thing so I don't blame her) I am very happy that me and DP decided to take the route of no punishments and no rewards when bringing up our children.

I've already posted this anecdote twice on different threads but a couple of days ago the washing machine broke and I was going - Oh this is sooooo annoying - DS2 age 3 came up to , gave me a hug and said" mummy you seem frustrated, (the sort of thing we used to say to him when he was having a tantrum!), don't worry, Let's call someone to fix it"

My DS can get angry and lose it. We have a number of children's books featuring anger and those help. He has learnt to count to ten, take deep breaths, think of something else etc. We do have time out in the corner and to get it to work I had to keep returning and sitting with him until he did his time. It was worth it as if he was badly behaved out and about then there was an easy way of dealing with it. It helped him to know what was acceptable and what was not. Now he is older I send him to his room, but he is allowed out whenever he wants, we ask him to stay up there until he feels he can be well behaved. For our DS a chance to calm down and a change of scene works for him. For me, the corner or his room stops me shouting my head off.

I agree with the person who said to limit chances for bad behaviour. There are no pens available in our home, it is crayons or pencils here. Paint, glue, glitter and playdough have to be asked for. There is nothing that they can get that I would be cross about them getting. They can get apples and bananas, their water and toys unaided. They can get scissors but in our house that is ok and I accept the consequences of that. I rarely use no e.g. can we have tv, you can have it later, not now.

When we are going through a bad patch I will ask DH to take DS for a run on the field near here and that helps calm him.

wow sesame that's amazing! DS has on occasion said something to me or DD along the lines of 'its ok to feel sad' - it makes me feel like I'm getting something right! you must be so proud

cakebar we're the same here wrt pens etc, DS can have them whenever he wishes but he knows that they're only for drawing on paper and only to be used sitting at the table. I think going for a run is a great idea, they're like dogs children sometimes aren't they?! mind you I notice if I don't get any fresh air for a day or two..the cabin fever kicks in

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who's posted in response to my OP. I put it in 3 different places as I wasn't sure which aspect to focus on, I've been really overwhelmed by all the positive responses and advice.

Today has been a good day. It started off with DS asking again for the hungry caterpillar on DVD. I didn't say no because I knew it would lead to a tantrum, I just went into the living room and laid a blanket on the floor and said 'where's my little caterpillar?' I then preceded to roll him up in a 'crysalis' whilst he was in hysterics, I got him to wriggle free and then we made wings from the blanket to make him into a beautiful butterfly. He loved it and asked to repeat it over and over again. Then we rolled up DD and then we had a tea party with all the dolls. We've also made Christmas decorations out of clay. He's been so happy and affectionate and playful all day and so have I.

I think part of the problem is having children just stirs up a lot of childhood feelings without any real explanation of what they are or why they're there. I just feel crabby a lot of the time. I don't want this to turn into a pity party but my parent's never played with me..yet another thing I'm learning for myself 30 years later. Oh well, I've got lots of resources at my disposal and 2 gorgeous, funny, intelligent, independent bundles of fun to learn it all with.

Thank you all, this will all pass so quickly so I'm going to try and chill out and enjoy it