Holidays with other people's children

[Katie50]

I have just got back from a very difficult weekend with my sister and her family. The whole holiday was dominated by my 5 year old nephew's tantrums, rudeness and sulks. He is very overindulged, stubborn and and used to getting his own way. By comparison, he makes my children, 7 and 5, look like angels (which they certainly aren't!!!) but they generally are polite and considerate. My sister's family, understandably, have very different expectations of behaviour and discipline, but it drives me quietly bonkers.

I thought it had got to the stage where I couldn't simply ignore it any more, particularly as she had spent the whole weekend saying "why are my children so badly behaved". So this evening, I phoned her to chat about it. We normally chat about everything and get on very well; However.... she totally went off on one, said I thought her son was a spoilt brat (which I didn't but it had crossed my mind!) refused to acnowledge that there was anything at all wrong with how he had behaved, couldn't see why I had a problem with it and is now desperately upset.

I find his behaviour so exhausting that to be honest I would rather not go on holiday with them again until he gets a bit older, which would be a shame. I'm also now also worried that she doesn't see how his behavior impacts on other people and that she's going to have some real problems later on if she doesn't acknowledge it and change the way she treats him.

Any suggestions on what to do now?

Shall I just back off and hide?! Has anyone been on the receiving end of this and have any ideas what I can do before we have to stay somewhere with them again as (this child's behaviour aside!) I do like seeing them and we get on really well.

Katie, does your sister have real concerns about her son? She might be finding it hard to admit to you that she's worried, or of course it may just be that your two families have significantly different attitudes to children.
We had some terrible times with my sister (and my brother) over our older son a couple of years ago, when I was painfully aware of how 'perfect' their children were, and she was trying hard not to go on too much about things like 'anger management'. I got quite paranoid about it, and it was hard when there was a phase of a few months when I was beginning to think there was something wrong, but dh didn't agree, and thought my sister was being ridiculous. We eventually had full assessments etc, and it turns out ds1 has Aspergers syndrome. Although it was hard to accept at first, the diagnosis has made it easier to cope with other people's reactions to him, and I don't feel so guilty about the way he is now.
Having said that, we don't do holidays with anyone else's children, just the odd couple of days here and there. We find our four utterly exhausting and enough of a challenge, and problems seem to grow exponentially if there are many more children around
Don't back off and hide - give her a chance to cool down, then ring again and see if you can clear the air?

jmb,

thanks for your advice. It did make me think. One of my children (the 5 yr old) has Downs Syndrome and we have been through some patches of very disruptive behaviour. Our reaction was to seek advice from anyone (including psycologists etc) to find ways to make him more compliant, otherwise we would simply never have been able to go out. I thought it was very important that he should understand what was acceptable and what was unacceptable behaviour. He is now a very pleasant, considerate and polite little boy (most of the time. It is really hard work. It's very frustrating that my sister thinks her son's disruptive behaviour is fine (or so she says).

I think I am just going to have to accept my nephew's behaviour (I've had enough practice!). But I am going to focus on trying to understand how she wants us to treat her children as that is what actually causes me the most problems. I'm totally confused about what she does or doesn't want us to do - the boundaries for what she and her husband expect us to do seem to be all over the place. Which is interestingly what I think is one of my nephew's triggers.

I'll let you know how I get on.

katie50, SHe probably doesn't think his behaviour is OK and is jealous of you. Which makes her feel bad as she is your sister and knows what you have been through to get good behaviour. She sounds like she is reacting by attacking you or completely denying any problem. Basically she didn't ask your advice and therefore feels you are probably being smug in offering it. I am sure that is not what you meant, and are genuinely worried, but she feels attacked and embarassed.

I would back off and not hide, but leave her be. Also don't make any suggestions on how to moderate the behaviour as this will seem to be patronising.

Good Luck it is so hard with families or friends when kids play up in their various ways. I have friends who I see and we all agree we will tell each others child off it we feel they are out of line and the parent will not undermine that. If friends are stricter than me, well fine my kids will learn. However it took time when I could see one friend as my DD was being a typical 2 - 3 yr old and hers was a baby at teh time - she freaked out when my DD shoved hers

We are in a similar situation. Me, DH & DD (2.5) went on holiday last summer with sister, husband and niece (6 months older than DD).

It was awful. My niece was very badly behaved and extremely spiteful to DD for reasons of jealousy & attention seeking. She was never reprimanded for it other than "why did you do that?" although she was smacked very hard by my sister for throwing a cake on the floor and stamping on it.

Eventually I brought it up after my niece slapped DD's face and nothing was done about it. We had a huge row and my brother-in-law's reaction was that IHO it wasn't a problem as she was only like this with DD.

Now I knew that this wasn't true as I had had conversations with my sister about her DD's behaviour with other children.

Unfortunately it ended up in a row about how they bring her up and lots of insults were hurled around about smacking, violent behaviour and lack of discipline.

As their answer to the problem was not to let DD play with my niece, we have now told them that the children will not spend more than a day together until we see that her behaviour towards DD improves. As we live at the other end of the country it's not really a problem.

When they see each other, they get along at first but then after half a day, DD is getting hit and turning into a whiney tell-tale and they stop getting on.

I feel like we're doing the right thing as it can't be such a big loss if she was getting bullied anyway! You can't choose your family and if a friend's child was so difficult to be around, you'd eventually choose another friend!

I think to go away on holiday successfully with other people's children you have to be either extremely laidback, or be on the exact same (or extremely close) wavelength as them about behaviour, discipline, diet, bedtimes ... all sorts of things.

Just because you are related to them, doesn't mean it's going to be any easier.

agree, roisin, otherwise you risk disaster.

katie- if your son has DS you have probably had a lot of parenting input (I would hope you have- I've had quite a lot of good advice for dealing with my autistic son) so maybe that means you are more clued up about parenting iyswim (and I'm not saying that parents of SN kids are better- just that I know the course I did to help with ds1 has also improved my parenting skills with normally developing ds2). I think also if you've had to work hard at parenting because of having a difficult child it can make you less tolerant when you see boundaries all over the place etc etc. I suppose also if you've never had the fear of having to stop somthing before it becomes a disaster (and I know what you mean- any problem behaviour has to be dealt with - immediately - but usually I have others to talk it through with) then its easy to let it slip. As an example over the weekend ds1 has started to pinch. He clearly does it to get a reaction - as he looks for one. He's now started doing it at school and nursery- but today I was able to talk to his LSA, his class teacher and the nursery manager about it- and we have decided on a strategy. I know the autism outreach team have been informed as well. So if your input has been similar it can be difficult to see people not acknowledgin bad behaviour or doing something about it. Thinking back to before diagnosis I would never have been able to discuss his behaviour with a nursery like that. Does that make any sense?

On the other hand we have problems when my SIL (childless) and her dh visit as they tell my son off all the time (even in our house)- often for just being autistic.

I think the answer is not to holiday with other people's kids!

I personally would leave it be. I had a similar incident going on holiday a couple years ago with a good friend of mine and our kids. I thought we had the same parenting outlook, so didn't think it was a problem. Unfortunately it was a disaster. Ours played up - hers were always the well behaved angels. I've no doubt they thought they were doing the best by offering their advice and opinions, but I'm afraid to say it just made us feel doubly worse. IMO I reckon it was just the wrong time and place for the advice. Interestingly enough the tables have well and truely turned - hers are presenting themselves as a real challenge now.

If your sister really does want to change her ds' behaviour then it really has to come from her and your BIL. I think the only thing you can do is offer her suggestions only if she ASKS you for it.

I agree, you have to back off. The least said now, the better. It you feel there is a bad rift growing, sometime in the future, take the opportunity to sing the praises of your nephew to his mother. There must be other things about him that you like?

TBH I admire any parent who plans a weekend away with another family with young children - older children are more ok, but put two 5 year olds together, add 4 parents, let them all stew together for 24 hours or more and you are very lucky if every child and adult keeps their temper, IME. Even if this boy had been an angel, it is unlikely IME that a joint family holiday would have been free of friction.

Your nephew might be much better behaved in smaller groups - perhaps he got over stimulated by all the company. I know my oldest son at 5 would have been like this. He was very exciteable and he adored attention. He would get really upset having to share us with so many people. Yet in calmer settings, with just him and one of us, he was a changed boy. It took me a while to see what was causing him to behave worse in company.

I'd wait a long while before planning any more joint holidays with this family. Keep it to days out and see how things develop. IME even lively 5 year olds can calm down a lot given two or three years.

I had one or two close friends imply to me (in the kindest way) that they were worried how my oldest son's exhuberant and loud behaviour would impact on others in years to come. The same friends now tell me he is so different to his former self. (Hope that doesn't sound smug)

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I think another problem is that you tend to get immune to certain bad or annoying behaviour in your child, For example DS1 screams a lot- I mean a lot. It's because he can't speak and is also part of autism. It can drive me mad at any time, but when other people are here I find it really stressful. Telling him off isn;t really fair as he doesn;t have an alternative, but if you;re not used to be around it it must be dreadful.

dp and I regularly go on holiday with good friends - have done for years and now we all have children we're still managing most years to have a summer holiday together. I think what can help it work is if you agree beforehand that if you see a child - whether it's yours or someone elses - 'misbehaving', you can take some authority and do something about it. All our children are very young - all under 3, so at this stage it's about making sure they're all sharing toys/not hitting each other/not climbing on anything dangerous etc. But by agreeing at a very early stage that we can take up some authority when needed with each other's kids, I'm hoping that the holidays can continue to be not so stressful.

That's the idea anyway - it helps we've all known each other for years, have roughly the same parenting ethos - although we do do lots of things differently - different bed times/routines/etc., have had children at the same time, and have continued to have holidays together from when they've all been babies! Having said all that, 2 of us have had/are having babies at the moment so I don't know if a summer holiday this year is on the cards..!

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We're friends again!

Thank you for all your advice. We talked again today. I said absolutely nothing about nephew except that he was a lovely little boy! She has accepted that his behaviour is difficult for other people. She also realises her husband has very different expectations of their children's behaviour from her own and the problems that this obviously causes, but they are talking about it now. We agreed that we need to sort out ground rules for how we treat each other's children and where possible we should have seperate accomodation or lots of time apart as well as together.

So all in all, a positive outcome.

Thanks again - this is the first time I've posted here and it's very useful

Katie50.

I know how you feel, every year we go on hols with my hubbys best mate etc, nothing you would think is unusually, but all the males in their family have Aspergers (7 & 10 years olds)(which for those who don't know is another form of Autism), so you can imagine our hols, the youngest is the worst, he will see something in shop, and if his parents don't buy it he has a screaming tantrum/blue fit, in the middle of the shop and has to be forcefull carried out screaming and kicking, by his dad.

Fortunately the adults do discipline their kids to an extent, so they are as bad, but they also SPOIL them like crazy and the kids know it, which makes it difficult for us, as our 3 yr things he's being hard done by when their kids come back from the shops with loads of new toys or sweets etc.

We also have bonded quite well with the boys and our DS loves them, the 7 yr old is about the mental/emotional age of my 3 yr old, so they bond very well.

We also take an very active part on hols, as DH and I are Very strong swimmers, where as our friends are not, so we teach their kids in the water, to swim, become confident, even teach the 10yr to dive last year, and DH & I talk to them and read them stories and interact with them more than their own parents.

But yes there are times when I want to just scream at our friends to stop spoiling or to do more with the kids, but the other problem is the Husband also has it and can't see what is wrong etc.

DH & I must be real suckers for punishment, we went away twice with them all last year, and in April we are going away with them again.

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That's lovely to hear Katie50
It's good that something positive has come out of this in the end.

Twiglett - Now I'm not talking out of turn either, but I have read about Aspergers, my friend gave me a book, and I wasn't having a go, I understand more than most what the Mother is going thru and the family, and I am fully suportive to her and the family, in fact we bend over backwards to help them out, if you must know. Granted I don't live with it every day, and I couldn't begin to fully understand, but then neither can most, because all cases are different.

But occasionally we all have to let off steam, and I understand it is difficult for them, we literally see each other every weekend and days in between, so see the childrens behaviour first hand. But when I am trying to bring up my child with discipline and to a good standard it's hard and frustrating when other children are treated differently, and yes I know they have aspergers, and I account for that, if I didn't then why on earth would we be friends with them.

If you read my posting you would have seen that we go on holiday every year with them and have done for about 4 years, including weekend breaks and days out, so I don't need to read up before I go on holiday.

I have also sat in with my friend and the counsellor on numerous occasions. No I'm not an expert, but I was just sharing with Katie, about the joys/stresses of holiday with children who have aspergers or (if you want to call them problem children) or other peoples children.