I need help. I'm a shit mum with no idea how to parent effectively.

[freakinundercover]

They just don't listen to me.

For example I have a rule that they only eat at the table, unless we're watching a film or something and they have a bowl of popcorn on their lap. EVERY SINGLE DAY ds will wander around with his snack, whether I'm sat with them or not. Every single day I say ds where should you be if you're eating? He says oh yeah the table I forgot. Sits back down. 2 mins later he's wandering around again.

I have tried taking snack away. Putting him in time out. Every day I end up shouting because he just doesn't listen or process it enough to do what he is told.

Mealtimes he's on and off his chair. Needs a wee, talking to the cat, looking at something in the garden, remembering something his teacher said to give me. DS sit down until you've finished eating. Ds sit down. Ds sit down! Last warning or I'm throwing dinner away and you're going on the step. Right ds THAT IS ENOUGH on the step now. DS back on the step. Ds your time is starting again now ON THE STEP...

Ds you need to get dressed now or you'll be going to school in your pjs. DS get dressed now. Ok ds I am leaving the house in 2 mins and you are coming in whatever state of dress you are in. He has been to school in pjs once and in trousers and tshirt (no socks or shoes). I'm the meanest mummy ever for this but it didn't get the message through, every day is the same.

Ds 5 mins til bathtime. Ds come upstairs and get in the bath. Ds bathtime. Ds NOW or no tv tomorrow. Ok fine ds you have lost the tv for tomorrow (don't care). Now get undressed to get in the bath. Ds why aren't you getting undressed? Undressed now or no story. Last night I lost it and put him in (now cold) bath still clothed.

I feel so useless. I tell him once, give him a chance to do it. Tell him again. Warn him, then punishment. I always follow through and he gets upset and cries then but every day I fight the same battles. It's exhausting. I have to literally stand over him to get him to do anything and even then he finds ways to get distracted.

I nag and shout every day and I am sick of it. This isn't how I want my life to be. I've smacked my children (which I thought I would never ever do) because I feel so out of control and like they won't do anything I say. When I've asked nicely, sanctioned and shouted and they are still pissing about.

I just don't know what to do.

Freakin - I have no useful advice for you, but I could have typed your OP myself about DS1 who will be 7 in Jan. Thank you to all those who responded, I will be trying your techniques, especially wasting less breath on warnings.
Do you mind my asking how his behaviour is at school? As I spoke to DS1's HT this morning :(
It is soul destroying having the same argument daily and feeling invisible, but the fact that you keep going, and care about improving the situation, make you an excellent parent in my eyes.
Hug

freakin it does go on for ever I think. DS1 is the worst for hearing blah, blah, blah. Every few months or so their behaviour slips back and I have to get quite cross about doing stuff the first time they are asked and then we are all OK for a while again.

Keep going, you are not a shit mum at all and I do find the counting works very well. There do need to be real sanctions or rewards to back it up though, otherwise it can be rather futile.

I also think that having 2 close in age might make it more difficult. I have 4 years between my 2 and if the older one behaves then the younger one copies him!

And agree with Johnny about games, I don't have the wherewithall to make stuff a game and much prefer the stop and listen to me now or x will happen approach.

Sympathies to you OP. I can hear your sadness at all of this and life should not be this relentless. It is sometimes like this for all of us but it sounds like you've all got into a bad dynamic on the day to day stuff.

What always amazes me is the very small gap between those families who have it working like a virtuous circle and those who have got into a vicious circle. Everyone's doing more or less the same thing but with slight differences it works out brilliantly or horribly.

Agree with Oblomov's suggestions. Also give yourself a break - you are not a bad mum - not least because you recognise this is making you all unhappy and want to make a change. And I think the battles you have picked are very reasonable ones - you are not asking for the earth but a few small things that matter in your family. You just need to get the DCs seeing your authority.

My most powerful tool is immediate consequences and disengaging. Not threats about what will happen tomorrow but immediate - if they are mucking about before bed I tell them to get into bed and if they don't, I walk out of the room and check out for the evening, no stories. If they are misbehaving at the table, food gets removed immediately.

I think part of it is an age thing. Stephen Biddulph, author of Raising Boys says boys do have physical changes in their ears that genuinely affect their hearing at various stages. Add that to the tuning out effect and you get ignored big time.
Things that have worked with my 7 yr old;
Give him more responsibility - he has to get himself dressed in the morning before he gets any breakfast.
No TV on school mornings.
He gets 5 mins timed on the clock to get changed after swimming.
Get right down to their level and their full attention and give very simple instructions "get into your PJs, clean your teeth, then we will have time for a story" Make the consequence immediate and use natural consequences as far as possible - if you don't get ready, no story. If you leave the table, no snack/meal. It's not a "punishment" it's the consequence of not playing their part in the smooth running of the household.
I think 7 is too old for time out as a punishment, I'd only use it if they were upset to get them to calm down so you can talk.
I wouldn't have the energy for the game thing and I don't want to be doing stuff for him that he can do for himself - that's more how I treat my 3 yr old.

Not dress them. But guide them.
Yur yoiungest is 6. Mine is just 5.

Also helps with silly, jolly voice.

Twee, silly voice. Fun. ( Hard when you are feeling less than b**dy fun)
I am guiding ds2(5) at the moment:

"Right then, lets see how fast we can get this done" (competitive quickness)
Boxers ONNNNN.
Quick. Socks ONNNNNN.
You get he idea.

Its like the idiots guide to babies.
It is a bit painful.
But you wouldn't believe how quick and less painful it is. And then I am guiding him les and less over the weeks.

Forced myself to get up 15 minutes earlier.
I keep being astonished that we are ready at 8.20am, when we don't need to leave the house till 8.35
Kind of don't know what to do with myself. End up putting a load of washing on!! Very weird !!

Don't beat yourself up about it. My son is much younger so can't make any suggestions, but being a parent is hard work and trial and error - I've learnt that already

OP, this sounds really tough. I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if I am repeating what others have said, but have you considered trying to turn discipline on its head and try and have fun with the rules instead? Maybe if you break your current pattern by doing things they really don't expect, it might help you all interact in a different way?

For instance, if my daughter won't listen, I start calling her "Bob" (or other random name), or I tell her I don't have time for her now as I'm looking for my pet snail (or whatever made up story I can think of). That really throws her - so she forgets she was not listening. Or this morning, when she wouldn't get dressed for school, I told her "I think you have grown overnight - I bet your clothes don't fit anymore. Can you try them on real quick to see if I need to order new ones?" I could tell she knew I was making this up but she played along.

One of my friends who has three boys, used to stop them from acting up or fighting with each other by using the threat "if you don't stop right now I am going to lick your face". Worked a treat.

I also give lots of positive reinforcement when they are being good, and I give them "jobs" to supervise the other (e.g. "please can you help me by making sure your sister eats all her food?"). Though mine are younger so not sure it will work with your two.

Conversely, when my DD got into a horribly long bedtime routine, I sat with her and explained things had to change, and said that for every night that she was being naughty at bed time, I would throw one of her toys away. Not just the small ones, but things she liked and really played with. It took two nights and she has been good ever since. I think it is because it was permanent - not just the loss of a privilege, but losing something material. It was definitely worth it though besides I hate little ponies

Good luck, I hope things get easier.

I think the consequence needs to be direct. I wouldn't throw toys away. Faffing with food - quietly remove food. Faffing with clothes - don't let them out of the room until they are dressed. Faffing at bedtime - you have until 7.30 then I am going downstairs. Hurry up or there won't be time for a story.

positive rewards are much better than negative consequences
every now and then my 6yo benefits from a wee "reminder" about table manners via a sticker chart and decent reward for 5 stickers. pick one thing at a time eg getting bathed and ready for bed without fuss

for the food thing I would sit down with them to model the behaviour you want to achieve

Thanks everyone some great advice.

Charlotte I always sit with them for meals, we eat together. Snacks I usually sit with them unless I am using that time to prep dinner, in which case I am stood facing them and chatting to them. Unfortunately modelling seems to have no effect!

Hi OP,

I think the reason these battles keep occurring is that there really is now a huge volume of evidence that rewards and punishments don't work and I mean they don't work even when they seem to "work".

We've never done them on our dc. (I know a lot of parents do them but time outs are based on behaviourism theory , of which all the experiments were done on animals!!!!

I've attached this link from the website ahaparenting which is written by a child psychologist

www.ahaparenting.com/ask-the-doctor-1/4-5-year-old-doesn-t-follow-rules-at-the-dinner-table

Here's another link where she gives some alternative techniques to use - ocassionally it gets a bit " american" but it's still worth reading

www.ahaparenting.com/BlogRetrieve.aspx?PostID=308761K

She's got a great book as well - laura markham peaceful parent, happy kids- where she describes how to emotion coach children rather than trying to control them. It's worth reading the reviews on her website and see how many people talk about how their family life changed when they stopped the punishments/rewards cycle

And just to reassure you that this is not permissive behaviour, both dc are thriving both educationally, socially, and behaviourally.

It really is possible to stop this cycle of power battles and transform your family atmosphere. Another book is Alfie Kohn's unconditional parenting...

the thing is you don't need to do the reward/punishment thing for long. DS1 is upstairs now and reading after bringing his kindle down at 8pm for a snack. When he gets tired he will go to sleep. I can't remember and neither I am sure can he how we got to this stage, but I am certain it will have involved some sort of reward/punishment at some point.

Ha, except for just now when he came down to show the 15 Mr Men books he has just read

Op-I felt like you, completely out of control
I did a parenting course and now feel so much better, just some v simple tricks
Look up descriptive praise/
Look up Bonnie Harris- when kids push your buttons
And try some simple rewards like the pasta jar

I could have written your post. I found it by searching "getting children to sit at mealtimes" as I need some help.

I have a 3 DS (5,3 & 1) and I spend all day shouting. I am exhausted, exasperated and am currently finding being a mum a challenging and unhappy experience. I feel like I am out of control and they are out of control. I am not enjoying them at all and dread being with all three on my own as everything is a battle: meal times, bed times, bath times, getting dressed, getting in the car, being kind/gentle with each other…you name it.

Thank you for the input and suggestions.

Just bought some egg timers and parenting books recommended…fingers crossed things start to improve. I know it has to start with me

You have all my sympathy, I'm often in a really similar situation. Only one of mine is actively disobedient, but the other is easily distracted and ignores what he can. Anyway here are some of the strategies that work (if I remember to use them).

For my disobedient one:
Create as many positives as you can...
Sticker charts are great - or marble jars, etc. I found you want to praise every little behaviour, especially early in the morning, to get them onside. Being dry in the morning - you start the day with a bonus marble. Helping me lay the table - bonus marble. Getting dressed all by yourself (no adult request, though it takes a little while to get this one) - bonus marble. You can try and make some of the things enjoyable - he actually likes sweeping the floor with me :/ Any form of helping is a good way to get him onside again. And you can give a lot of praise for each marble or sticker early on, though pretty soon, you slowly reduce the praise level so they are happy because they've earnt their marble and deserved it, not because they have been gifted a marble - they know they have been good/helpful, and you've only confirmed it.

My disobedient one seems to have issues if told to do something, so sometimes I give him a reminder first (eg, It's nearly time to go do something to do with clothes, I'll give you a second to see if you can think of it before I tell you). It works for him.

For the negatives...
A completely calm
eg 'LittleBonk, stop standing on the plant'
'At 3, we go home - That's 1',
If behaviour continues then 'That's 2'
If behaviour continues then 'That's 3; we're going home (and follow through STRAIGHTAWAY)'
works really well, although you have to make sure they are close enough to hear it all, and that you are following through every time - so don't use it where you can't follow through on the threat. I was shocked how quickly that took effect. It's the same as the 5-4-3-2-1. You have to use as few words as you can to make sure they sink in, and use the same 'form' each time. The book '1-2-3 magic' discusses this quite a lot more. (Thanks, MN!)

It honestly sounds like if they are rolling on the floor that they are not just being distracted, but actively disobeying. So count them, with the threat of bed straight away/no snack/whatever. I have put one of mine in bed with clothes on before - it's not just you. In fact I'm more likely to call it 'bed time' and put them in bed slightly early in this case. After a while the behaviour will stop just before the end of the count if they're making a point, and instantly if they aren't. And occasionally you will need to follow through. I think this works because they know when the follow through will happen.

For the truly distractable one, it's tough, though he has improved this year in tooth brushing, room tidying, etc. If you figure out the answer, please let me know :) Tying tasks together every time seems to help; pyjamas and teeth belong together, so once he's doing one the other is more automatic.

I second whoever says that if a reward will follow (eg, cuddle once you're in pyjamas) then it seems to happen by magic.

We have times for each part of getting ready too - breakfast will go in the bin if not finished in time (more so if a child is faffing, not if they're just 30s late), and I've taken one into school in Tshirt and pants before and got him dressed in the playground. So yes, I am 'that mum', but we're slowly getting through the worst of the behaviour.

Definitley pick your battles wisely. Best parenting advice I ever had. Does it really matter if he wanders away from the table at mealtimes? Not worth losing your rag over, just let it go. Kids do jump around and wander off and get distracted - it doesn't mean they are deliberately being disobedient, they're just being small kids.

Also, I think you are being really hard on yourself. My kids spend hours every night not getting into the bath, saying they are busy playing and don't want a bath. And thousands of other kids are doing the same. I think it's just what kids do. It is tedious and it is annoying and a lot of the time I'd like to get in the bath myself and shut the door, but it's just life.

I think you are getting too fixed on a routine of sanctioning and punishing and you need to save these sanctions and punishments for really serious stuff - hitting other children or running out in the road. It's very hard but you need to keep your calm. My youngest DD is the world's worst procrastinator, getting her to do anything takes hours. But shouting and getting cross makes no difference and achieves nothing. I now say "Ok, no bath, no stories, I'm going downstairs" and she jumps in the bath because she can see I'm acting like I really don't care. If you stick to your guns about things they really want to happen, if they love stories, you will perhapps get more helpful results from the kids. I think they believe you more when you're calm than when you're upset.

Children just don't really listen most of the time, particularly when they've been at school listening all day. If i change the subject, away from the military routine of eat/bath/bed and talk about other things - then they listen to me and then without knowing it they're more keen on having a bath - if I just carry on talking and start undressing them - I'm talking about something more interesting and they are distracted from being told what to do nonstop.

Parenting is hard, you're not a shit mother - you're just experiencing what 90% of other parents are experiencing but you're blaming yourself instead of accepting they are just doing what most small children do. My children are kind, helpful and polite a lot of the time, but they are also distracted and tired and human!

Sounds like a really tough time you're having. Do you have any support? i.e. a partner? Grandparent? YOu're not a shit mum. The fact that you CARE about them being clean, on time, well fed, clean house, etc shows that you're not a shit mum. It's just hard bloody work.
I have much less experience than other posters but agree with strategy of much less talk, warnings, etc. More rapid and consistent consequences.

Also, maybe I'm just borderline schizophrenic but when I'm starting to losethe plot at home I try to pretend I'm somebody else, i.e. NOT DS' mum. I imagine I'm a very strict French mum. Or Supernanny. Or Mary F'ing Poppins. Or someone like that. I talk in a different way to normal (sometimes in French, which seriously confuses DS!), and somehow it makes it easier for me to feel emotionally detached from the frustrating behaviour and just deal with it like a job. I find I can take dinner/snacks away from him as a discipline measure because I've shut off the Mummy voice inside which says "but my little baby needs to eat and I can't put him to bed hungry....".