Am I being too harsh? Residential school trip.

[mrssmooth]

Would appreciate some opinions here please. DD2 (almost 11yo) is supposed to be going away with school next year on one of those outward bound type holidays. However, her behaviour recently has been appalling and after many threats, I have told her she is not going on the trip.

A bit of background: she is an absolute angel at school and is working really hard and doing very well. At home, however, it's a different story. She has a quick temper (as do I, which do not go well together (sad)) and constantly refuses to do anything I ask of her (simple, expected things for a child of her age like tidying her room, putting away clean clothes etc). Every time she is asked to do something we (dh and I, so it's the behaviour is not just aimed at me) are met with an instant, repetitive "no" in a high pitched "yappy" voice (designed, I suspect, to have maximum irritation effect on my nerves!) I will ask her to do something a couple of times before she actually does it. Sometimes she does it, sometimes she doesn't. And sometimes she just explodes with temper and rants, raves, screams, shouts and throws things around. It probably happens once a week.

So just recently, when her behaviour started getting bad, I have been saying to her (calmly) "you need to think about whether you really want to go on this trip, because if your behaviour continues, you won't be going". She's let her behaviour get to the point of me saying you have 3 chances and then thats it, you're definately not going. Well, we reached the third chance the other week. She had a huge tantrum after being asked to put some clothes away, chucking things out of her room and emptying her drawers of clothes. So I said OK, enough's enough. You've had all your chances now, you're not going on the trip. I was immediately met with "I don't care" and I just left her to calm down and decided not to mention it until she did.

A few days later she came to me and asked if she really had blown her chance and I explained that yes, I'm afraid she had. I said that I didn't want her to not go on the trip, but I had also given her enough warnings to know what was going to happen if her behaviour continued. She argued that her dd1 got to go on a residential trip and that dd3 would get to go on "her" trip. I explained that dd1 went on her trip because she didn't display the same behviours as she did, and that if dd3 started behaving the same way as she did, then she absolutely would not be going on "her" trip either!

I'm now wondering if I've been too harsh on her, and whether I should let her go on the trip? It's taken me a long time to get to the stage of "no means no" (I went on the Positive Parenting Course a couple of years ago, when I used to back down all the time and which I suppose may explain some of her behaviour to some extent). I'm worried that she's going to miss out on the trip and, if I'm honest, hold it against me forever! WWYD?

I think - the criteria for going were a bit woolly.

But, you have said it now so I wouldn't back down. Otherwise you are teaching her that you will give in and she doesn't need to believe your threats.

Having said that for future trips I would have specific criteria she has to meet so it's all clear cut.

Could you let her 'earn' the trip back? She has to behave herself acceptably (not perfectly, but making a real effort to improve) and if, by the closing date for paying for the trip, she has kept this up, then she can go. Alongside this, you could have a 'three strikes' rule too - for really appalling behaviour. Three really bad incidents, and no trip.

At the moment she has no incentive to improve, and her behaviour might deteriorate due to huge resentment at not being allowed to go on the trip.

I think that a trip that is happening next year is too far ahead for punishment to be honest. Especially for a pre-teen who is dealing with massive changes to her body and hormones.

You need to find more immediate and more proportionate punishments for her behaviour - for example when she chucked everything out of her room I would have bagged it all up and made her earn it back.

You also risk her behaviour going even more down hill if you keep to your stance about the trip as she may think she hasn't anything else to lose.

IF its an Outward Bound trip it will be an incredibly valuable learning experience for your DD. She will be really challenged both physically and mentally. You really should let her go.

Back down, apologise, say the trip wasn't a fair punishment, but her behaviour has been appalling and you will do XYZ instead. In future have your punishments to hand so they are suitable and you are happy to stand by them.

Let her earn it back

Tell her you've thought about it and you think it would be appropriate to sit down together and work out how she can earn back the trip - use it to clear the air and to set some ground rules, write them out and stick them on the fridge

I'd take her out for cake and do it in a cafe

Sorry but I think you chose the wrong punishment this time. For home behaviour it should be something not linked to school. You can't let her think she can get away with bad behaviour, but if you choose a different more appropriate punishment (but still one which is a real impact on her) then I don't see anything wrong with sitting her down and explaining that you've realised this punishment is not appropriate but you'll be doing xyz instead. You could even ask for her input in coming up with something appropriate!

Thanks. I will have a good think about this. BTW, I have tried the bagging up stuff that she throws around and she really, really doesn't care if she gets it back or not! Her behaviour at home has been pretty bad for probably a couple of years although in recent months things have improved until very recently when this all happened. DH has given me his support, has even said if it makes things easier, blame it on him (she is prone to taking her anger out on me more than him) but I have said that this is something I've done but I appreciate him backing me up.

I'm really stuck about it. I know it's a long way off but she was warned several times this would happen if her bad behaviour carried on. (I am very aware I'm saying "but", as if I'm trying to justify myself. I suppose I am in a way. I just have a sinking feeling that if I say OK, you can "earn" the trip back, things will just go back to the way she always has been.)

I kind of agree with the others that cancelling the holiday is too far away to be an effective punishment and also think that now she has lost her trip, there must be little that you can threaten her with to motivate her to behave well. I would wait for her to come to you wanting to see if you can work out a way to get the trip back. Going to her unilaterally would, imo, send out the wrong message.

I think having said it, you cannot undermine your authority further by relenting straight off but earning it back in a very structured and clear way might be a way forward. Each week she must do x or get 5 ticks or whatever. Something measurable and achievable but don't lose sight of the real goal which is for her behaviour to improve. In the meantime, maybe have a think about a separate set of sanctions involving removal of pocket money or phone or something if she is disrepectful. I don't think its acceptable to blame her behaviour on hormones. Its not obligatory to act appallingly and selfishly just because you hit a birthday.

If she is doing well at school and working hard, could it be that the pressure builds up and she explodes at home in a "safe" environment. Does she do anything to relax? I would let her earn the trip back.

I would also say you need to pick your battles. If her room is a mess insist that she clears an arc shape to close the door and leave it to her to deal with, under the condition that no household / kitchen stuff disappears up there forever and she doesn't let mould grow. If she doesn't mind her stuff being confiscated then she probably has too much stuff and could do with a big clear out any way. Could you/ dh support her to do that under the guise of sorting through things to donate to charity before Christmas?

hmm, hard now you have already banned it.

I think it is too far away to be an effective punishment, what do you do if she plays up next month?

also trip is very valuable and great growing up/learning experience for her.

I think that you could let her earn it back, but I would sit down with you, her and dh and talk about it. (having already talked to dh) Get her to suggest what needs to be done to earn it back. Make very clear targets, and make them achievable, and make them last over the next few months until she goes.

Perhaps a chart, certain behaviours allows her to colour in a square, she has to get 100 squares in order to go.

This should not be an easy option, rather sell it as a way for her to prove to you over the next 3/4 months that she is prepared to respect the household rules.

At the same time, I agree with Teddybare, I would hand some responsibility for some things over to her, eg room tidying, clean clothes (not in basket? then they will stay dirty) Don't baby her, she is not a little kid, make her chores part of the deal, chores done each day = one square, no chores = usual punishment (eg loss of phone for 24 hours)

Be tough, but be very clear and very fair.