My 5 year old is 'mean'... is there anything I can do?

[MabelMay]

Hi all,
I have two DS - one 7, one 5. They are both happy, bright boys - my only worry is the fact that my 5 year old has a mean streak, and it's starting to play out at school. I don't really know what to do. Is it a phase? Have any of you had similar?

I know he's only 5 so it might seem silly to even worry about it - but I don't want this to be an emerging character trait. He has apparently been telling other boys in the class to tell one other boy specifically that they don't like him. He's been encouraging them to push him etc., although he never does the pushing himself. He's gone from being a boy that the teachers love to a trouble-maker. And it breaks my heart to think the he is being deliberately mean to other kids. I've sat down and talked to him about it, in a non-accusatory way - but he always denies all knowledge and then gets upset and tearful if I try to push it. So I've talked to him about ways to be kind, how he'd feel if boys were mean to him, etc what's right and what's wrong.

What I suppose my main concern is, from your experience, is cruelty like this just a little phase that he'll hopefully mature from? Or did you 'mean' 5 year old grow into a 'mean' 10 year old and so on and so forth...?

I wish I knew how to stop the behaviour.

Thanks for 'listening'.

I should add that I can see this 'meanness' in him sometimes. He's very bad at sharing. He's not always nice to his friends - he can be a selfish monster really and not very kind. But it's hard to know how much of it he'll outgrow. My DS1 was/is not like this at all - in fact he's almost generous to a fault - so I do feel sometimes like it's not just a phase....

I'm afraid I'd never consider any behaviour "just a phase". Bad behaviour needs clear and consistent consequences. What are school doing and how are you supporting them?

I think it's great actually that you can admit this to yourself. We all love to think that our kids are perfect although they're not!

There was a girl like this in my DD's class, and she was a nasty bully by year 6. I'm not sure what the answer is, talk to his teacher perhaps, he or she might have some good advice, but I do think it's good that you are trying to do something.

This might be an unpopular view, but rather than talking about it in a non-accusatory way, I would probably up my reaction. We frame our children's moral picture and I think you possibly need to emphasise the shock/horror response. For two weeks, I would treat every incident very strictly/sternly. However I would also over-emphasise and praise when he gets it right and does something kind. I shouldn't think you would have to do it like this for ever but I think you need to emphasise your reactions - a bit like painting in spray paint than watercolour (IYKWIM).

Agree with HeyJudith, if the softly softly approach hasn't worked then it's worth trying to up the anti and have a zero tolerance approach.

i'm going to be brutally honest and say to you that this isn't "being mean" this is bullying.

there's little you can do at home, if the behaviour is mainly at school, other than re-iterating what you've already said and being consistent in what you do when you do see it.
if he says it hasn't happened then ask him what DID happen... he may have a very different view and you can point out that even though he thinks x/y/z ultimately the outcome is still that someone is getting upset?

Like I say though, if it's mainly happening at school then they're the ones who will need to deal with it.
My ds was on the receiving end of this kind of thing in reception (i do think it's quite common at this age) and the teachers did a talk at "circle time" about how to treat people kindly, what we look for in a friend, why it isn't nice to say certain things to people... aimed at the class as a whole rather than picking out individual children.

They say that bullies have low self esteem etc - so I'm wondering why your ds is like this. Is he overlooked at home, do you favour one over the other etc? Why does he cry when you push it - have you asked him why he does it?

My sympathies OP. We all hate to think our child might be causing another pain. But please, don't fear that if he is behaving like this that he is a bad egg who will be forever nasty and unkind. My friend's DS went through a phase of this, and a sweeter, kinder boy (now 13) it would be hard to find.

I don't believe it would be helpful - quite the contrary - to set up a cycle of stern 'talking-to' combined with over reaction to normal, decent behaviour. He will start to fulfil your expectations, whatever those are. I am not saying that his behaviour is alright and that you shouldn't address it. But I do think that when a child is behaving unkindly then it is usually because they are feeling horrible themselves. He is so very small - only 5 - and your response to him will shape his world.

Have you read Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting ? It's quite controversial (including on MN) and not to everyone's taste but I found it very helpful when my own DC was going through something like this.

Please don't start believing your child is mean. He is simpy a five year old behaving badly for reasons that aren't clear. You can help him to fix whatever is going wrong. Good luck.

I was think about the why too - do you compare him to his "lovely kind2 brother and he feels he can't compete?

I think you have rightly considered the future if you don't tackle this now. There will be lots of anecdotes of children growing out of their antisocial behaviour, but when you have worked with challenging children it is clear they do not all grow out of it!! So.... I would speak to the school, urgently. The consequences will be no friends and a reputation as a bully if you do not work with them to help. Some children also act up because others in the family are a goody two shoes! It is important to be clear about your expectations of good behaviour and praise when he does something well. Some children do cry when they are tackled about their poor behaviour, it is also normal to be quite defensive about it, but I would definitely try to work with others on strategies to improve the situation. It may be, of course, that he is already noticing that friends and his teachers are not so keen in him which is leading to insecurity.

Oooops.... Keen on him!

Hi anotetofollowso and OP

I've read Kohn's Unconditional Parenting and agree with you. I don't understand why UP is controversial -it's completely evidence based !

OP - I think you're going about it the right way. He won't open up to you immediately but because you've been kind to him, you would have planted some seeds without knowing.

When DS1 behaved in a "bullying" way towards DS2, - he didn't open up immediately but because we talked to him about how DS1 felt and good ways to solve disputes, he told us that he thought that we took DS2's side over his... we all discussed about the times when he thought this had occurred, and pretty much overnight!!!, his pushing/shoving of DS2 during play stopped.

ps DS1 now 7 and got a spontaneous email from a school mum last week saying she overheard her son and 2 of his friends talking about how nice my DS1 is !!

From your OP, I think you would get a lot from reading Unconditional parenting and also laura markham's peaceful parent.take a look at the website ahaparenting

I would also not say it's a phase as in "it will pass on its own". It probably won't.
Telling other children to push another child over is quite calculated behaviour, I don't think that comes under "he's still so little". Two-year-olds push each other over without much thinking, but at 5 he should have more empathy and clearly knows it's wrong as he gets others to do it to avoid getting into trouble.

Boosting his self esteem seems important, and lots of 1:1 with you and dp. Keep talking to the school, I hope they aren't too heavy handed in their approach.
If you catch him being cruel make sure you don't let it go uncommented, make him see that he wouldn't want that happening to him.
Emotional intelligence does not develop on its own, loads of little kids have quite selfish and nasty streaks and still develop into caring and lovely adolescents with a little help.
Maybe you could channel his energy into something acceptable where he can get recognition. You know him best, pick something his big brother is not interested in.

agree... kohn is great! UP is my fave parenting book (not that i've read that many)

Firstly, it's a good thing that you are rational enough to recognise this in your DS. Everyone, to a greater or lesser degree, has the capacity to be mean and selfish do we not? As a parent, it's down to you (and your DP) to reward appropiate behaviour. Make a fuss of him and reinforce ANY acts of kindness you notice him do and try to help him to develop empathy by explaining how actions can hurt others' feelings.
How does his big brother treat him (including when you're not around)? Just a thought that he may be re-enacting.

zero tolerance approach I would say. Clear consequences for any actions. There are also some social books to read to improve understanding of empathy and feeling of how others may feel. If you do not deal with this now and lay the foundations, it will be much more difficult in a few years

I should say well done on recognising the position. As a parent of a child who was bullied at this age, I think it must be a very difficult thing to do

I have not read UP but work in education and have been running an international project on restorative practices and it seems the 2 are closely linked. I have to say it has changed me as a person and a parent and it isn't perfect all of the time my 4yo. The evidence of this approach has seen a 40% like for like week improvement in behaviour at my school, so maybe it is an approach you could suggest that the school adopt?
It will help your DS to understand what happened? How others and himself were feeling and then he will help to make things right. He then understands just how sad/ angry etc he's making the others feel and can develop empathy and self esteem. You back it up at home and you'll all be smiling.
I wish you luck and the strength to persevere :)

I'm so sorry it's taken me so long to come back on here and respond to all your considered replies.

First of all steamwisher and randommess - thanks for implying the blame must somehow lie with me! No, he's definitely not the unfavoured one at home. Coming from a large family I'm very aware of giving each child their own time with me and equal amounts of attention, and not comparing them to each other. He and his older DS1 (who is 7) get along very well - make each other laugh and play v well together. Although of course they have their sibling moments.
I don't think his problem is low self-esteem either. Although he absolutely has an 'artistic temperament'.

poorincash - thanks for your thoughts. his brother is actually very kind to him and indulges him quite a lot, shares all his stuff with him - so he's definitely not re-enacting.

I will definitely read the book (Unconditional Parenting) that a couple of you suggested. And the other one that you suggested sesamechoc

heyJudith I'm sure you're right; but I wanted to talk to him about it in a reasonable way initially so he wouldn't be too 'scared' to admit it, in case he was worried I'd get really cross with him.

I'm surprised at how many of you think this is a character trait that will continue, rather than a situational and age thing. I actually was expecting more of the "this is quite common at this age"... I was hoping for that any way, as it's what I feel in my gut. I also remember one of the 'mean' girls when in early primary school went on to be a sweet and considerate older girl - so that gives me hope!

Sorry this post is all over the place. I have a cold today and don't feel very 'with it'.

Anyway, I'm going to take all this in. What I will add is that DS2 (the 5 year old) seems to have stopped whatever it was he was doing (which I"m still not clear about) at school. A lot of the children call his name at drop off and pick up - so he is clearly liked. But does that mean anything? And the boy he was allegedly being 'mean' to - they now seem to be playing very happily together. So I hope the talking to has worked.

I'm aware I have to tackle the selfish aspects of his personality, and I'll be keeping an eye on the way he is with other children (as I always have). But it's a relief at least to see that his 'mean' behaviour at school seems to have ceased. For now anyway.

Thank you everyone who responded.

He is still young though. Maybe it is normal 5 year old behaviour and he's testing the boundaries - but you're comparing him to his older brother and your expectations are too high. I can't remember what my DCs were like two years previous - its all a bit blurry! I have a general impression but some stuff has been forgotten.

I think you're going about this the right way.

My ds was involved in preschool in a similar situation in that he was the one who was told to push. Being very immature and looking up to the other lad, he often did it. Then he was in trouble and the other lad would look innocent.
Once preschool staff worked this out and the lad who was telling him to do it also got into trouble, this situation stopped. (and yes, ds was to blame too, so was also in trouble for it)
I don't think it's a common situation at all to do it regularly and on one particular child at that age. Certainly preschool didn't think it was, and I haven't come across it as a regular thing in three children. At that age they are much more the spontanious push/lash out at an immediate situation.

Also you can't take a lot by the calling the name either. Dd2 (in particular) used to keep a running commentry on the way to school.
"Hello A!" (waves) as an aside to me "A gave me a pencil yesterday, can she come to my house today"
"B! Hello! B!!!" (shouts across the road) aside "B's really mean, she pushed my friend yesterday and she hadn't done anything"
"C!" (runs over and hugs her) aside "C's my friend. She says I can come to her party... but she says that X can't because she's nasty..."

I would look and see if there is an underlying cause at the same time as cracking down on it though.
With ds' situation. It was two boys who were close friends: Call A and B. They didn't really like others playing with them except on their terms. They didn't mind ds because he did as he was told. But another child (C) really wanted to join in with them as an equal. A didn't mind him, but B really didn't want him to, so he'd tell ds to push him. A very clear jealousy situation.
As it happens they're all friends now, although A and B are less exclusive now (year 2). but I think if the situation had been left as a phase, it wouldn't be okay. It did take some work, mostly by the preschool staff, both to help B not mind C joining in, plus make sure ds and B were both aware that pushing (or telling others to push) was not acceptable.
B thought he was clear because he wasn't actually doing it. Ds thought he was in the clear as he was only doing as he was told by (to him) an older boy (6 months can be a lot at 4yo!). They had to learn that they were both at fault.

I just wanted to reassure you that my brother was apparently like this age 5/6 and now he really is the kindest, most loving man I know!
You've had great advice, I'm just saying if you can nip this in the bud as much as possible that's fantastic but really don't worry that he will turn into a mean teenager /adult, as Long as you keep modelling kindness and tolerance yourself he should pick up on that.

OP, I supervise in school playground and there are certain pupils (thankfully very few) who are guilty of this behaviour.

It is particularly sophisticated form of bullying (the child directing the abuse appearing to have nothing to do with an incident "it wasnae me, I was over there") and I commend you for taking an objective view and wanting to do something to stop it. Regrettably, some parents will not believe us when we talk to them about their child's behaviour and, without parental support, it can be difficult to stop.

You are right to be concerned and want it to stop. I see pupils who have continued this awful, nasty behaviour (because they usually target vulnerable pupils to do their dirty work and watch from afar when they go on to get into trouble, giggling with their other friends in the background) through the school, developing it and embedding it into their character. They will deny, deny, deny having any involvement even when witnessed by staff. Their parents will always believe their story and support their child's position. It is frustrating because, as has already been mentioned in other posts, these children are not happy with their lives and we cannot effectively deal with this without their parents support and help.

I would suggest that you explain to your child that you will be working closely with the school and him, to help him to stop this behaviour. Don't talk about it in negative terms. Emphasise helping, supporting and encouraging the better behaviours you want from him. Ask for daily reports at the end of the day.

We sometimes use a sticker chart that a child will take home to show to parents each evening. A sticker will be earned for each period of acceptable behaviour. If your child's danger times are playtime, then a sticker for a good morning playtime, lunchtime playtime and afternoon playtime can be earned.

Praise every sticker earned. Talk about how he changed his behaviour to earn each sticker. Keep up the momentum. Don't give up.

He is still very young and hopefully, if you all (you, him, the school) you will have success, eventually.

OP, I wish you the best of luck.

This is very worrying behaviour. I personally would absolutely not be 'non-accusatory', I would be very accusatory indeed! My five-year-old would know perfectly well that this is bullying. I would find this slyness MUCH more concerning than, say, shoving a child in rage. I would be saying 'In this family we do not bully people EVER. I will be speaking to your teacher every day about your behaviour until it improves and you will be punished if I hear you have been bullying people.'