My 2 youngest boys seem to cry most of the day.

[NappyHappy]

They are 1 & 2yr old. The 2 yr old I think its down to him just starting to talk and getting frustrated. The one yr old is very clingy with me and always has been but its getting worse. I'm averaging 3-4 hours sleep a night and its knackering as some of you have experienced. They both go to bed great but its the hours from 1-4am give or take an hour where the fun begins. Ds3 wakes for milk every night and will be awake for approx 2-3 hours, then wakes ds2 up who screams and bangs his head. I don't get to bed til gone midnight as ds1 refuses to go to sleep til 11-11.30pm and he is 5yr old.

Do you have any tips/advice on how to turn the sleep round of ds3? He has 2 hours sleep from 10am ish onwards.

Sorry for the essay!

Don't give ds3 milk when he wakes. Water or nothing, he is old enough to get through the night without and you both need to sleep.

Ds1 needs to be asleep hrs before he is doing, try rapid return. No communication, he is old enough to have it explained earlier in the day and then you follow through in the evening.

It will be hard and tiring in the short term but not half as hard as continuing as you are

A 5 year old NEEDS more sleep than that for sure. You could try bringing bedtime forwards by 30 minutes every week so he doesn't notice or do as above and the rapid return. Either way going to bed at 11pm is NOT an option for him and he needs to know that.

Your DS3 is still only a baby and might need comfort in the night rather than milk. Have you tried co-sleeping with him or putting him to bed as normal but bringing him into your bed for a cuddle and further sleep when he wakes? Doesn't sound like he's purely waking through hunger if he's staying awake for 3 hours.

It's hard when they cry a lot. Both of our boys have been massive criers and huge whingers until they could talk properly. DS2 is 22 months and still has whingy afternoons after his nap where nothing I do seems to please him, he's short tempered and will throw himself around whimpering and getting frustrated. I offer him snacks and cuddles but basically I have to just get on with our day. If I sit and play with him or give him extra attention it actually makes him worse because he knows then he can manipulate the situation and will whinge all the more for attention. Sending you a lot of sympathy. Crying drives you mad.

What's happening during the day, are you at home with them or is there a mix of childcare arrangements?

It sounds like they are all competing for your attention possibly as well... but I am no expert of course!!

Ok, tackle 1 DS at a time
Start with ds1 bedtime, 7.30/8pm the latest

Then DS1, offer water or nothing during the night, I wouldn't think at 1 he wouldnt still need milk, it's probably just habit more than anything else, offer a protein rich meal for tea as keeps them fuller for longer, bath, milk, bed.

Sounds like ds2 would actually sleep if it wasn't for ds1 waking him?

Good luck, it may all seem very overwhelming, especially when sleep deprived but just look at 1 problem at a time

OK, from what you have written I'd say:

DS3 - sounds pretty normal for a 1yo in terms of clinginess and disrupted sleep. My own DS1 was a nightmare at night at this age, despite having been a wonderful sleeper for much of the first year! As others say he may not need the milk at night but tbh at this age it very much depends on the individual baby and the amount of milk/food he is taking during the day. You ask about how to turn his sleep around - personally I would try giving him a very short nap in the morning (say 30 mins max) and then try settling him down for a longer nap in the afternoon, from around 12:30/1pm. The staying awake for 2-3 hours in the night could be linked to overtiredness and a later nap during the day might help manage that.

DS2 - sounds completely normal and the crying/whingeiness is probably part developmental and part exhaustion if he is being woken every night.

DS1 - sounds like your most critical issue tbh - absolutely no way should a child that age be going to bed that late - should be 7:30/8pm latest. Unless there are SNs involved, this sounds like a behaviour issue to me. Is he in bed and refusing to sleep, or refusing to go to bed at all? Either way this is the first thing I would look to sort if I were you. Agree with bringing bedtime forward on a gradual basis, use rapid return, perhaps try star charts etc as incentive to stay in bed. He must be chronically sleep deprived and must be affecting him in terms of behaviour, school performance etc.

Hi, thank you all so much for your replies.

I put ds2 down for his nap after lunch rather than before today and he didnt seem any different for it which is good. He does have lots of protein in his last meal as I had read up on that somewhere :) ds1 had to go for a nap this morning as he woke at 2am and didnt go back to sleep til sometime later, he took himself off downstairs to sit with DH (he has Spinal Stenosis and the pain keeps him up all night most nights) he's woken lie this the past few nights and would probably sleep better if ds3 wasnt waking him. Co-sleeping would be great but with the amount of meds dh is on when he does sleep a bomb could go off next to him and he'd still be asleep! I do love having the boys in bed though when I get chance.

They are at home with me during the day whilst ds1 is at school. He does have an appointment on the 18th at the hospital about his behaviour and sleep as it is an ongoing issue and needs sorting out so hopefully we will get somewhere with this one. I will continue to keep returning him to his room and hopefully in the next week or so he will get the message. He just refuses to sleep and refuses to go to bed. He says he cant help it as it his brain thats telling him to so these things.

I shall give the water a go tonight and see where we go and I will stick to it, would it take about a week do you think?