I need quick advice-ds tantrumming in his room

[YoureBeingADick]

Collected ds1(8) from afterschool club 30 minutes ago, he was in normal mood, no overly happy, not overly grumpy, came in and went to the kitchen for a drink and asked if he could have a chocolate cereal bar i said no as i was about to start dinner.. I came in living room to hang coats and i heard rustling, peeked out and saw him hiding a bar in his inside coat pocket. I asked him to open his coat and when i saw the bar i asked him to put it back. He said he would keep it for after dinner i said well if you hadnt tried to sneak it you could keep it but not now. He said fine take it then and as i grabbed it he pulled away then put his foot out to stop me closing the cupboard. I said go to your room and he did, stroppily. Ds2 (4) was upstairs and i could hear ds1 having a go at him so i went up to bring ds2 down and ds1 stood saying 'i didnt get my drink- im still waiting. I'm still waiting.' The whole time ds2 and i ignoring him. As i got to the living room ds threw something downstairs then a couple minutes later he came down and stood at the door demanding i get him a drink so i just walked over and as i did he turned to go back up stairs but then turned and threw his shoe back down at me which hit me in the head. But i followed him up and just closed his bedroom door. He is now throwing stuff round his room. I can hear it.

This is old behaviour that he used to pull but i thought was gone. Sometimes i reacted badly and shouted, sometimes i ignored, sometimes i cried and told him i didnt know how to deal with him. I need to get this stopped for once and for all. It is ridiculous to react like this to bejng told he cant have a bar. He wouldnt do this at school ir at his dads. I know this for sure. I have been very calm this evening and intend to stay calm.

How do i deal with this immediate situation? Do i leave him in the room til he is calm or do i let him come down himself when he is calm. He is supposed to have scouts tonight- do i not let him go as a consequence? Do i i bring him down for dinner? Bring it up to him? Keep it for him til ive had an apology? Do i ask for an apology or just hope for one?

Sorry for all the questions but i need to get this cracked with some sort of consistent response that drives home the message that i am disgusted with his behaviour and it is never to happen again.

This is long but may help?

We had numerous tantrums / incident with dd (9) before the summer holidays which ended with us seeing the parent support advisor employed by the school.

What was helpful for us as keeping a diary of when she kicked off with time and what was happening beforehand. In the end we figured out that she is most likely to kick off when hungry. Almost all flare ups come just before meals or if she hasn't had a big breakfast or eaten her packed lunch. The tantrums have gone down an awful lot since we recognised that she gets humpy (hungry & grumpy)

wrt dealing with the behaviour we have a tick chart for good / poor behaviour which is linked to pocket money. The chart clearly spells out what we expect from her and also explicitly spells out the incremental steps of 'punishment' that she gets. ie loss of tick, then loss of computer / tv time, then grounding and finally going to room for the rest of the day. That way we don't engage when dd loses it we just take her to the pocket money chart and she can see what will happen next. We don't have any negotiation over it not being fair or her not knowing what would come next.

The tick chart is identical to her older brothers. Before we had differentiated tasks for each (as her brother needed encouragement re schoolwork rather than behaviour) but that was just emphasising we saw dd as the 'difficult' child'

Once she has lost it, it's no point trying to reason with her. She goes up to her room or sits at the kitchen table. If her room gets trashed then she doesn't get to rejoin us until it is tidied up. She now recognises when she is starting to get cross and takes herself off to listen to her ipod (another suggestion for the PSA) to calm down.

The biggest suggestion that we had was to revert back to toddler taming. She needs to learn / re-learn the skills of controlling herself and expressing her needs in an acceptable way.

I was really dubious about meeting the pSA. I didn't think that 'naice' families like us needed help with our dc's. Turns out all we needed was a fresh set of eyes to stop the vicious cycle ofexpecting her to kick off and then us (me especially) losing the plot when she did.

Sorry for the essay HTH

Yes it's too late for scouts now anyway, he's still up there and we havent eaten yet as kitchen decided to fall on top of the hob while i was cooking and dinner went on the floor. He is doing homework. He came down to ask for help with it as if nothing happened. I will speak with him when he's done and we've eaten

Thank you all. Baileys that is very helpful. Going to sit and have a think about a chart and pocket money ( he doesnt get any currently as things are quite tight and he gets to scouts dancing, drama, swimming and afterschool club twice a week which all cost money.

When you do talk to him, try to come up with positive things he could do rather than a list of things he can't.

So maybe include ways of letting off steam - one of these maybe, or a mini-trampoline.

Or an instant meal or activity as he comes in the door.

Or even a guaranteed 15 minutes away from his brother? I used to make sure ds2 was occupied when ds1 came in to avoid the fight.

And also, don't get bogged down in all that bad things he does. Ignore the muttering and the stamping, and only react to the really bad behaviour. A diary is a fantastic idea - but make sure you diary the good things and the good days as well as the bad.

Here is our chart that we tweaked with the PSA (not as draconian as it sounds)

The chart earn them 10 pence for each tick. The maximum that they can earn is £4.90 a week but most weeks they average around the £3 mark.

The 7 daily points are
Good behaviour - up until 9am
good behaviour - during school day (and detentions or steps at school and they lose this tick)
good behaviour - 3pm until bed
homework without moaning
not coming down (after bedtime, ds has an awful ahbit of wandering downstairs multiple times a night)
Making own packed lunch for school
Other (emptying dishwasher, putting washing away etc)

On the chart is also says

Definition of good behaviour:-
Doing as asked straight away - lost if asked 3 times
Not arguing with Mummy or Daddy - sensible reasons for debate OK
No fighting - both lose a tick if one of you is crying
Calming down before getting really angry
No step 3's or 4's or detention at school

Mummy and Daddy will not shout at you, we will be more patient
Consequences of bad behaviour:-
Loss of tick
Loss of computer/Ipad/phone time
Loss of television
Grounding
Bedroom for rest of the day

Good chart, Baileys

Ticks could also be 10 minutes computer time, or get x ticks to get a poundshop lucky dip toy/treat at the end of the week if £4.90 per dc is too much for the family finances

would you think about doing a parenting course, it would give you confidence in dealing with issues as they arise, and also you'd get to meet other parents going through the same thing... you've got some good advice on here.
When things have calmed down, tell him you love him, and write him another note...

Thank you all for advice.

He did his homework and came down. He had tidied his room and although clearly calmer and aware he had been out of line, he didnt offer an apology and very quickly forgot his tone with ds2 ( when he thought i couldnt hear) and slightly less so with me.

I told him i was very disappointed in his behaviour and that we would be having a chat tomorrow about it and in the meantime he was to pay for anything in his room that he broke which turned out to be a lantern he made himself at scouts and a dent in his desk stool from throwing it. He brought down his money box for me to take what was needed. ( i dont think i should take anything as nothing was actually broken that cost money or needs to be replaced)

I told him i would speak to him tomorrow as i want to spend some time thinking about my words and the chart (im going to use that idea thanks bailey). I also want to speak with his teacher aswell and ive told him he isnt going to afterschool club tomorrow (ds2 is going so it will give ds1and I an hour in which to speak properly alone).

Oh and as he was going to bed he apologised for tearing up the note i had written and he gathered the pieces and took it with him to bed.

I really echo what Baileys has said.

ds (aged 10) kicks off a lot, and we go through cycles, he is great for a few months and then we have a bad patch.

He is like Jekyll and Hyde when hungry, and we have spent years trying to teach him to recognise this in himself and learn that he needs to control himself and eat. He is not there yet, but better.

Once he kicks off, he very quickly gets to the place where he can no longer negotiate, or control himself enough to respond to sanctions, so it is no use saying ''if you continue xx will happen'' as he is past caring, so we have learned that once he is kicking off, what he needs is to go to his room and calm down, and then we can discuss it. There is one consequence for the whole episode. Otherwise we ended up with removing one thing, then another, then another, all during one temper tantrum.

We have talked about it many times when he is calm and he understands that going to his room is for him to calm down, and he needs to come down when he is ready to talk, that puts the responsibility back on him. If he comes down and starts being mouthy again, he goes back until he is ready.

We have seen huge improvement in the last year or so, but he still reverts at times, he was dreadful after school in sept until he had settled with his new teacher, and I expect him to be awful next month, after he comes back from he residential school trip, he will have a great time, be well behaved and then melt down all over us when he gets home.

We have also deliberately made times when we show him love. He has half an hour mummy time on friday nights when younger dds are in bed, and it started with us watching doctor who (not suitable for younger ones, so we recorded it) We gave him a few things that were recognising he needed responsibility, and he loved those, we also let him earn some extra pocket money, and let him negotiate a different bedtime routine, all about recognising he is getting older and his voice is valued in the house.

Last point (sorry about essay) he is HORRIBLE to dd1, who is 2 years younger. It is an old, ongoing problem (he has no probs with dd2) We have sat down with him, and acknowledged that younger siblings can be a pain, that he doesn't want her there, and that he doesn't like her. It is important I think for them to realise that these are normal feelings. On the other hand, we love her, and she has the right to live in her home and be treated with respect, just as he does, so the rule is respect each other which means no hitting/kicking/nasty teasing/winding up etc, if you can't respect, remove yourself from the family space, ie go to your room.

I think the fact that your ds has improved and is now slipping back, shows that the techniques you used worked, and he is now having a blip, reinforce what you did before, go back to basics again, and try and work out if something has triggered it, but what you did before worked and will work again.

sorry, a bit mammoth

Thank you steppemum, that is a really helpful post. Im going to write down what i want to say as i know i wont say what i need to if i dont. Great point about getting him to recognise he is humgry and also that his room is for him to calm down and his responsibility to go there/ come out when calm.

I have a 4 year old, and this thread makes me think that there may not be so much difference between a 4 yr old and an 8 yr old! When your son was 4 you probably made sure for him that he ate his snacks and got the right amount of asleep. You probably think he is old enough to look after himself a bit more now.

My 4 yr old pushes my buttons when she behaves like this, so it must be much worse when an 8 yr old does it. After a run-in, I am angry and want revenge (I know, pathetic, she is only 4!), however, I have realised that I don't have to win every battle. One way of coping with toddler tantrums is love-bombing, and with your current issues with your ex-p, perhaps this might help your son? What I am trying to say is, try tactics that you would use on a toddler. Excuse him the occasional lapse, if he is generally being good at school and at home. Accept that 8 is not very old after all. Instead of punishing, find positive methods to work on the problem and spend some more time with him over the next week, if you can. You have already maintained your calm in the face od extreme provocation (you are a better woman than me!!!!).

I agree sweatpea

while it is really important to have clear boundaries, we are in the end a family and being loved and feeling safe is very important.

I love love bombing, and would highly recommend it. Also as my mum would say sometimes it is very useful to be blind in one eye and pretend we haven't seen something.

and, I don't always feel the need to punish, we have clear consequences, but sometimes, it is enough just to say something.

and another one

when ds just couldn't stop saying nasty things about dd1, we made new rule - for every insult you have to come up with a compliment for her. And not vague, or something about her nice jumper, but specific, about her personality or something she has done.

That worked really well, and he found it very hard at first

Thank you both this is reay helpful stuff. Wrt punishments yes i see how i sjould focus more on 'lovebombing' . He is clearly not coping well witj whatever emotions he has going on in there, whether that is hunger or feelings about his dad or tiredness or whatever. And yes the rules must be kept, respect being the main one, but he needs to have a better outlet for any and all emotions that he needs to get out of his head.

Thank you again. Lots to think about.

Sometimes it is easy to take their behaviour personally when it isnt about me at all (mostly it isnt i suppose) and that they are real people with all those same feelings i have but just not as well equipped to deal with it due to being going through it all for the first time.

It is very important for him to know that being angry is OK, it is normal, it is an emotion we all have and it needs expressing in some way. (unexpressed anger can eventually lead to stuff like self harm and depression)

It is not wrong to be angry, in fact sometimes it is right. (it you see someone getting hurt and you get angry and try to help)
It is OK to feel angry when people let you down and hurt your feelings

The problem is how we express it.

hitting = unacceptable expression
thumping a cushion = acceptable.

get him to come up with ways that would help him to express anger that are acceptable.

And don't be too hard on yourself. I find it very hard not to take it personally, and to remember to remain calm. dh is much better than me and you are doing it all on your own.