Time out or positive parenting for 4yo boy? Not sure time out is working

[mumoftwoboysS]

I have a 4yo who is going through a phase (I hope it's a phase!) he started school in Sept and we've just found out he's been hitting other children. I've talked to him and told him its not ok and am hoping he will stop. In the meantime, his behaviour at home has become more challenging. DH and I are going to start being more firm and using consequences etc. We've used time out in the past but it's always been me physically carrying him upstairs then closing the stairgate whilst he wails and screams blue murder for ages. I read in a book I've got (Setting Limits with your Strong Willed Child) and am trying to follow the advice- i.e. using time out calmly, no anger, putting him in his room, if he tries to get out and is upset you can hold the door handle if you need to. I tried this tonight and he went mental. Screaming, crying, battering the door for 8 mins.(twice as much as his age for hitting his brother) He then escaped so I had to put him back, another 8 mins for not calming down.

I'm just not sure it works for him. I'm not being defeatist or weak, it just doesn't work how it's supposed to- I'm supposed to be able to 'send' him to his room where he'll go and calm down. He goes bezerk if I mention time out and gets more upset than he was originally.

I'm thinking perhaps an alternative is a good idea due to his temperament? Positive parenting or just using consequences? But at the same time I don't want to be too weak. The main issue is how do I stop him hitting/hurting his brother or sometimes he's just really hyper and won't calm down....

any ideas/thoughts welcome!

Do you know why he is hitting? Frustratin/communication/anger/games getting out of hand?

My just five year old gets into 'massive rages', we have sort of turned them into a joke/game. So if he starts to see red, I will sometimes hold his hands and do the rage with him. Or have a mock fight with him...
Am trying to acknowledge the scary intense feelings (that we all have and is not wrong in itself) but separate it from the hitting behaviour which is not ok.

I love a book called Playful Parenting by Lawrence (I think) Cohen. I agree with consequences and setting limits but think we have to meet children where they are at to communicate them.

My second son is 5 now though has always been strong willed. Time out/naughty step never, ever worked for him. He would just refuse to sit down and the whole thing became a huge and stressful battle.

Instead he responds to calm repeated sentences like "ok, this is your choice; you can carry on with this behaviour but if you do then you won't be going to the party tomorrow/getting a cake for pudding etc etc".

It's more effective for him and much less hideous for me. My DH still finds it hard to stick to this when ds2 is being a pain but its mostly me around (sahm and DH works abroad a lot).

The minute I accepted that not all children will respond to the same tactics was a great relief.

Yes!
And nothing wrong with you walking away too and refusing to engage. "I am not staying to be hit"/
"Ds I will talk to you when you talk to me in words/nicely". But again, different kids and depends what level it has got to!

I think at 4 school can be a challenging and scary place. If he just developed the habit it must be connected to his experience at school. Can his teacher or whoever is present at playtime observe what seems to be triggering it? You obviously don't want other children to be hurt and him developing a bit of reputation but you need to take his feelings into account as well. I would cut him some slack and do more fun things together. Are there any woods nearby that you can explore together or built dens?

Can you "play school" with him? Appoint playmobile figures a teacher and children and just run through school day? Hopefully he can show to you what it's like for him.

Stop doing it! It's not working and sounds like it is adding to his and your stress. His behaviour sounds to me like he is struggling to cope with school and is probably stressed and anxious - and it doesn't sound like you are helping him deal with that by using time out or other punishments. Behaviour is how children show us that they are finding things difficult - he needs your help with this, not to be disciplined. Time out never ever worked for my strong willed 5 year old - the few times I tried it I had to spend hours afterwards reassuring him and comforting him because he was so distressed. Changing your approach is being flexible and responsive, not weak.
I would recommend How to Talk So kids listen (and Listen so kids talk) for alternatives, also How to Raise Your Spirited Child.

Def not weak x

If you've ever seen Supernanny, she gets children who have never done time out/naughty step, sitting on the naughty step. Most of them try to leave 5, 10, 15 times but you just keep putting them back in place no matter how many times (40? 50?) they challenge you by getting off - you stick to your guns and put them back on until they have completed the time.

It's about learning you mean what you say and that you are in charge, mentally not just physically.

I have a strong willed child too and find that I need to be extremely firm and very strict, when non-negotiable, anti social boundaries have been crossed (eg hitting) but equally, I need to be extremely jolly, pleasant and positive when he is behaving really well. He reacts better to more obvious signals than subtle ones, as such.

I would use the term "naughty step" for naughty behaviour (eg hitting) and "time out step" for boisterous/won't or can't calm down despite warnings, or cheeky behaviour. I have reserved the sending to room for absolutely terrible behaviour (fortunately have hardly had to do this). I think sending to room is quite heavy handed for typical naughty instances, and I do think you need to designate a step or spot as the naughty/time out step and place him back on it as many times as it takes. What you will generally find is that they learn to stay on the spot and eventually (best of all) you don't actually need to put them on the step because they modify their behaviour at the warning stage.
Ie I would say for hitting brother - "NO, X, - that is not allowed. You do not hit your brother. Say Sorry to (brother) right now. (make sure he means it). If you do that again you will go on the naughty step."
(this is for lightweight hitting not an absolutely nasty thwack that is more like some sort of punch or really malicious/bruise forming BTW - that would be a different. Only you can judge the intention combined with the level of aggression contained in the individual instance).

I agree you should try to get to the bottom of hitting to reduce/eliminate the behaviour but whilst it is going on you must treat it as the anti-social behaviour that it is - no matter what the reason/cause. He is old enough to choose not to hit and to know why you mustn't.

If he hits because he feels aggrieved or even intimidated by another child/children (for example, another child takes his pencil or toys, so he hits) then teach him that if another child does something he doesn't like to tell the teacher/teaching assistant and ask them to help instead of hitting. Some children try to deal with minor skirmishes by themselves but it comes out/ends up as hitting, but perhaps he just needs to be told it's Ok to say to the teacher/TA, "James broke my model, can you help". or "Thomas took my pencil, can you help".

HTH :)

chocolatecrispies I have to say I do agree that time out doesn't always work and trying different approaches is good, but I think it's dangerous grounds to say "Behaviour is how children show us that they are finding things difficult - he needs your help with this, not to be disciplined".

He does need to be disciplined. Hitting is antisocial behaviour. It needs disciplining (as opposed to no disciplining) whilst investigations are going on as to the cause. Hitting is never ever going to be acceptable no matter what the cause. However the OP needs to try to find out out the cause so he doesn't hit.

Would you really agree that if your child was being hit by another child at school (repeatedly for all we know) that the other child didn't need disciplining over it? Even if your child was found to have aggravated the other child, leading to the hitting; hitting (and similar) can't be overlooked. It's possible to help a child and discpline at the same time - it's not one or the other (IMHO).

Please don't emulate Supernanny. Her methods are questionable. You can show children that you won't be coerced into changing your mind in better ways.

The best way to use time out is as a positive, calming down strategy. You can ask your DS to choose where he goes to take a moment to calm down and reflect or you could ask him to sit in a particular place in the same room as everyone else.

It doesn't matter where he goes, as long as he, and anyone else involved, is able to calm down.

Gold how would you deal with a malicious/vicious strike? Would you really ask your child, if he has just maliciously and agressively hit his brother or another child, where he would choose to go to take a moment to calm down and reflect??!

It's not about letting the child choose their spot - why does the child need to choose? Why aren't you as the parent capable of choosing the spot (because that's how it comes across to the child?)

I don't think someone should emulate Supernanny but I think if there is a sense that the parent has lost control somewhere along the line then that control needs to be taken back, ie when the parent decides a spot, and a length of time, the child has to comply - it isn't a request, it's an order.

When a child is 20 would they get the choice of calming down places by the police after they have punched someone in the street? No. And it's not any different. A 4yo's moral and social upholder is the parent or closest caregiver. A 20yo's moral and social upholder, once they are adult, is their own sense of right and wrong (learned from the parent) and if that's at odds with the rest of decent society, then it's the police.

I am projecting into the future here, but my heart sinks when I hear statements like "let the child choose the spot to calm down and reflect on". Just grow some parent balls and decide the spot for them.

Time out isn't a sanction. Its a way of enabling a child to regain control of themselves. If a child has lashed out in temper it is the child who has lost control, not the parent.

If you're issuing a sanction you need to explain, remind, then issue the sanction which needs to be immediate, age and appropriate and tailored to the situation,preferably using natural consequences. Shutting a child in a room isn't an appropriate or effective sanction as the OP is discovering.

If you're helping them to calm down why do you need to decide the spot for them? Do you also need to decide how they sit, which way they look, what facial expression they have while calming down?

They key is that I am in control. I am telling the child that they need to remove themselves from the situation and take some time to calm down. I don't need to micromanage how they do that.

If I told a child to go to a certain place for a particular reason and they refused, I would then have to assert my authority and I would. They know the boundaries and what happens if they cross them.

Enabling a child to take responsibility wherever possible is a sign of a parent who is very much in control. I want my child to learn to use these strategies to manage their own emotions in the future. A child with those skills isn't so likely to be the 20 year old in trouble with the police.

Barking orders at a child and making a point of detailing their every move is sign of a parent struggling to maintain their authority.

Wading in with timeout without checking the underlying cause will make it worse. Of course it will (I have a 4 year old boy).

A few thoughts - they have a testosterone surge at that age so need to channel their energy. Get him rough housing with his dad (eg wrestling) where he enforces boundaries etc.

He'll be tired - early bedtimes strictly enforced.

Give him strategies. Find out when he hits and ask him neutrally why he does it. And tell him what he should do next time. Then if it happens again (it will!) ask him what he should have done. This works with ds - just have to keep on plugging.

I find time out horrible because it doesn't work. If it did why would parents need to keep repeating it?

Wading in with timeout without checking the underlying cause will make it worse.

Wading in with any sanction without looking at the cause of the behaviour is always a bad idea.

However, using time-out to calm everyone down and then look at the underlying cause of the situation is more than appropriate. There's no point in having any conversations while emotions are still running high.

I've just re-read the OP and I would suggest monitoring his play with his brother and intervening when you see the warnings signs. Label his emotions for him so he begins to recognise them for himself and redirect him towards a different, perhaps solitary activity for a short while. Also model the language they could use to each other to express when they think things are getting out of hand.

This isn't an easy solution. It takes concentrations and an ability to drop what you're doing and intervene at a moment's notice but it will help them both to recognise when things are going awry which is the first step towards managing it for themselves.

Time out, if used as a sanction, which it almost always is, can backfire. I tend to use it in a positive way - eg suggest everyone sits down for a minute as opposed to telling them they're in time out for hitting. (which is what I used to do until changed tack!)

For me, it's about looking at what your long term goal (and short term goal) is and then experimenting to find out what works for YOU. I am pretty strict and boundaried but (aim for) a playful and positive approach.

So you want a-short term) the hitting to stop now and b- long term) him to find a confidence to approach things rather than hitting.

Too much attention on time out/sanctions/ and getting him to stay there may miss the point of b. However, for some children that might just work as a simple consequence for your short term goal. When my daughter was two she went through a hitting phase, I told her 'if you hit x again, we will go home". She did, we did. She didn't do it again. I thought my parenting was marvellous and then I had my son who er... Let's just say needs a bit more energy...

In my very humble opinion, techniques are merely suggestions as children and families are different. There are no easy answers or one-size-fits-all solution. Keep fixed on your goals and don't derailed by punishments that don't address them. And good luck trying - my five year old really changed from four to five (also had grommets for hearing impairment that I only noticed at 4yrs...?)

Wow I've started quite a discussion! Thanks for all your responses. Well we have tried time out a few more times in the modified way i.e. using a timer and not acting angry or using excessive force and I have to say he's responding better. No screaming now, he does still cry a bit but nothing like before. I think the timer helps as he knows that there is a finite amount of time and an end to it which helps him to calm down.

And as to the hitting at school after our 'chat' he hasn't hit since. It has only been a few days but I'm hoping he's realised he shouldn't be doing it now his mummy knows about it. I don't think he was being overly vindictive or really aggressive as the teacher said the kids weren't coming to her crying - it was more of a whack or a pulling of hair - not that that's acceptable just that it wasn't overly violent. He does it to his brother when he's bored or isn't doing anything constructive so I think it may be a similar reason at school -coupled with the stress of starting in a new place etc. fingers crossed he won't start doing it again.

I understand all your views on time out and the arguements for and against it but despite my reservations I do agree with those of you who have said that hitting needs to have a punishment/consequence whatever the reason for it and I don 't intend to use it too much, only for really violent/agressive acts against his brother. He never hits me so it's just a sibling thing really.

creature interesting Ive heard someone else mention the surge in testosterone- they definitely have bundles of energy that needs to be chanelled or used up! (not looking forward to a week of rain ahead!) I try to go straight to the park with them after school to wear them out a bit and keep bedtime on time to prevent tiredness. Someone else also told me boys tend to react to stresful situations (i.e. starting school) with agression and girls with emotional responses.

I highly recommend Setting Limits on your strong-willed child by Robert J Mackenzie as well- he talks about this family 'dance' that people do - basically whenever theres conflict how each family does the same thing- how it escalates and often with lots of verbal warnings, persuasion, bribary, cajoling, pleading etc before finally giving punishment. He recommends being very blunt and saying if you do x again then this will happen. Then follow through, no warnings. He explains how important logical consequences are and also suggests how you can give kids a choice i.e. you need to stop fighting on the sofa, now you can either take it in turns to spend 15 mins on the sofa each (using a timer) or you can share nicely. Giving kids the power to decide often helps.

gold yes I mentioned to DH we need to look for warning signs that things are getting out of control and guide DS to do something else or distract him- I agree that avoidance is much better if we can stop him doing it in the first place!

Well done! Sounds like it works for both of you x

He recommends being very blunt and saying if you do x again then this will happen. Then follow through, no warnings. He explains how important logical consequences are and also suggests how you can give kids a choice i.e. you need to stop fighting on the sofa, now you can either take it in turns to spend 15 mins on the sofa each (using a timer) or you can share nicely. Giving kids the power to decide often helps.

Really good advice, although I would argue that "if you do x again then this will happen" is a warning and this is very important. One warning is enough and then the consequence happens. If you start to give lots of warnings the child won't know when the warnings will stop and the consequences start and that takes away their power to make appropriate choices. It's a bit like counting to five then adding in halves and quarters.

You're right that there needs to be a sanction for hitting. The sanction will be most effective if it's immediate and linked to the action, e.g. you hit xxx because he was touching your toy so you will have to put the toy away and play with something else." If the toys comes out again the deal is it can stay out if they can cooperate or it goes away again.

Hopefully, if you can start to recognise the warning signs and identify them verbally for your sons, you will equip them with the same skills eventually and they learn to manage their own play and conflicts better. Well that's the theory anyway

Great post, Goldmandra.
Would just add that keep your consequences small and simple (and ideally connected and immediate) as then they are easier to follow through - 'If you hit him with that sword, I will take it away' not
throw it in the bin (unless you are like me and looking for an excuse!!)/no more toys for a week/you can't go to Lucy's birthday party

My fave I heard in a park (and have def not said similar, no way...) was to a 3yr old 'If you don't come now, we are never doing anything fun ever again!'

I think about that family now, four years later in their boring life. Hope he earned his fun back.

yes you're right gold I didn't realise- it is a warning, but like you say, one warning and that's enough-its funny how you don't realise you're giving loads of warnings and threats etc till you stand back and think about/analyse how you deal with things!

yes sometimes I find it hard to think of an appropriate sanction/consequence quickly but hopefully that'll get easier.

Lol Adair about the parent in the park! DH has a tendancy to think of over the top stuff or stuff that will ruin all our fun i.e. we're not watching a film tomorrow, or having that trip out (then other dc misses out) so I'm always gently reminding him to be less extreme!! He thinks the harsher the punishment the better, but at their age I think smaller consequences are better for them and us!

He thinks the harsher the punishment the better, but at their age I think smaller consequences are better for them and us!

Maybe he needs to ask himself what incentive they will have to behave nicely for the rest of today if tomorrow's treat has already gone out of the window.

It is better for a child to receive praise for doing the right thing than a sanction for doing the wrong thing but, if a sanction is necessary, it needs to be implemented quickly and a 'clean slate' approach taken immediately afterwards so they are able to start again and make better choices.

I think 16 minutes is too long for a punishment for a 4 year old.
The first 8 didn't work so why do another 8?

Time out/naughty step etc are not something I've ever used successfully, I don't know why these tactics are pushed so much

frameyMcFrame you're probably right it is too long. I was taking note from a book that said you should double the amount of minutes (from their age) for really bad behaviour -i.e. hitting, but perhaps 4 mins is long enough.

Well I know it's not for everyone but I think if it's done consistently then it sends the right message that violence is not tolerated and it gives them time to cool down. It also lets them know that if they misbehave then they won't be able to spend time with the family for a few minutes, that 'priviledge' is taken away.

Gold true, we have a few issues at bedtime (i.e. him getting out of bed repeatedly) and this is often met with threats from us- one warning then he can't do x tomorrow (like use his colouring book or specific toys) but sometimes this still isn't enough to make him stay in bed. Incentives are also used but sometimes we offer them as bribes - i.e. you can have a treat tomorrow if you stay in bed, only to be exasperated 20 mins later and take the promise of the treat away!

The threats and incentives are clearly not working so I'd just stop using them altogether. Try to keep bedtime battles to bedtime.

He isn't going to start the day wanting to be reasonable and cooperative if the first thing he gets is a punishment held over from the night before.

I assume you've tried all the things like a slightly later bedtime, nightlight, audiobook to listen to, etc. If not perhaps you should start a new thread asking for positive bedtime tips.

If you've done everything positive you can think of then it is appropriate to follow Supernanny on this and just calmly keep taking him back with minimal talking and no other interaction.

Doing deals with him is giving him a choice. He has no choice. It is bedtime so just keep putting him back. No shut doors, no punishments, no deals and no irritation on your part. Just quietly assert your authority to decide that he needs to be in bed.

The advice about the number of minutes that match their age for naughty steps, etc is meant to be a maximum, not a target. Doubling it seems rather extreme and it's probably unmanageable for the child. I'm glad you've decided to keep it to four minutes.