3 YO hitting and throwing at nursery - needs behaviour assessed?

[webminx]

I've posted about my 3yo before - he is struggling with the new addition of his baby brother and generally being very challenging at the moment; night waking, throwing/hitting (only ever adults - not children and not the baby), refusing to use the toilet (but refusing to wear nappies), screaming and shouting at the slightest request etc. He basically alternates between being a total nightmare and perfectly lovely. There are no identifiable triggers for his outbursts and we ahve tried sticker charts, ignoring, taking away toys, thinking step, focusing on positives etc.

Now nursery is also reporting his behaviour as very undesirable and say that he is not responding to any of their strategies. They have been very good and collaborative on this (is a great nursery and we've been v impressed iwth their work generally) and he has been at this nursery since he was 1. He was always very happy there until he moved into the preschool room, about a year ago, when he became unsettled, crying that he didn't want to go etc. They put lots of things in place to improve the situation for him and we thought things had improved, apart from the potty training. Now nursery have requested a meeting about his behaviour and are asking us to consider enabling them to bring in a behavioural specialist/EY support person to assess his behaviour.

I don't know what to do - on one hand, I think this is normal 3.5 yo behaviour, exacerbated by new baby and the nursery is overreacting. Drawing more attention to his behaviour is surely just what he wants and is likely to just esacalate the situation. On the other, things don't seem to be improving and any help at this point might be welcome.

Does anyone have experience of this? Does involving someone like this start a lot of intervention? Really not sure how to proceed... Any thoughts or experiences of this would be VERY welcome as I ahve a meeting with the nursery this week to discuss...

You must be stressed out by this but the good thing is that the nursery aren't just passing the buck but are willing to look into reasons for DS behaviour.

I think it's "normal" to a point but by 3.5 most children would be able to take on some management which he hasn't yet.

Can I ask how his language development is? And have you had his hearing checked recently? I would go ahead with the assessment if I were you as if there are some strategies which could be suggested, you want to make full use of them for DS sake.

Hi,
Thanks Jitney. He's really very verbal - something the nursery have commented on positively in the past; he's all talk, all the time. His hearing is definitely in order - he doesn't miss a trick!
We keep reminding him to use his words when cross or sad but he just resorts to hitting/throwing for attention. It is really stressful as he used to be/is a really lovely child but this behaviour is eclipsing his personality and making us all very :(. I'm getting the feeling that nursery are also at their wits' end with him. He seems to thrive on being punished - really revelling in it and escalating with every intervention, which is why I think ignoring is the key here. It's exhausting (especially the night waking!) and it's taking a lot of airtime and focus in our house, often at the expense of the baby, who's barely getting a look-in! Any thoughts welcome... I just feel like this is never going to end. When will he go back to "normal"?!

Bump. Anyone had a nursery or preschool suggest this?

Also, had worst night of night wakings last night ever - up screaming and crying between midnight and 2am - couldn't/wouldn't tell me what was wrong. Shouting "no no!" and the when I go in, being totally fine and just wanting a chat. More screaming and crying and then at 4am appears in our bedroom saying he's "scared". Of what, he will not say. Am exhausted and at wits' end. Is this a phase?!?!

You poor thing. My son didn't sleep more than 4 hours for two years and it nearly killed me. You must be exhausted.

To be honest, I would bite their hand off.
The nursery have been training strategies and are being logical and admitting they need more help.
For ne,the possibility of more support and perhaps more effective strategies for my child would be something I would welcome.

I would probably let them bring the suggested person along. Or perhaps have a meeting and then bring them along to a follow up meeting?

I have a 5.2 year old who has been very challenging (for the record, I also have an almost 7yo, a 3.5yo and a 1yo - so good terms of reference for behaviour of my children). Half the time my 5.2 yo is 'normal' the other half of the time she is still just like a 3 yo. I have been worried about ethics since she started reception (now y1). Finally gone to the gp and she may have Asperger's syndrome. Because of the time she is so 'good' (social, popular), it never even came into my mind. I'm not suggesting your son has Asperger's at all, but nothing can come to harm by having a specialist there. I've spent the past couple of years thinking that I AMA pretty shit parent who can't control my kids and doubting my ability. It didnt have to be the case. Hth.

Thanks all - good to hear am not alone, at least! Think will be open to it - DH is a bit "anti" the idea as he feels it's just part of an industry that has sprung up around "kids behaviour", which he thinks is a bit cynical. However, he also agrees that we need support to manage this so think he's also coming round to the idea. I am really starting to doubt my ability to parent and to keep my child safe/happy, which is very :( so as you say, anything that might be able to help can only be a good thing...

I understand. My toddler has had ongoing intermittent episodes of hitting and scratching. He is now 4. It is very difficult. When he plays in a group he can sometimes play quite well but if there is an upset within a group it is often because my son has lashed out. I have worked very hard with my son and there has been a significant improvement although there are still reasonably frequent 'episodes'. One of the nursery staff (fairly tactlessly) at a social event for the kids said that my child would benefit from a social skills programme the nursery was running. I was very upset. I felt a failure as a parent. It is easy for people who have reasonably well-behaved children to brush aside these feelings but I think if you feel this way it is reasonable to acknowledge it. There is every likelihood that it might not be true. But I think it is unhealthy to ignore or deny your feelings.I accessed the social skills programme the nursery is running on the internet and bought the parent's guide. It is called 'Getting on with Others' by John Cooper (he is a child psychologist. The ideas and suggessions have been well researched and used with good results in nurseries/schools in NSW Australia. You could try this. It isn't a magical solution but worked well with my son. I don't think your husband is entirely wrong about the industry that has sprung up around kids behaviour.I work in education and children who are boisterous, young for their class, or obviously different in certain personality traits are sometimes labelled as having behaviour issues or special needs, when in fact (and this is my opinion, in some situations) the child is pretty much just a regular child. Hope that is of some help.

Thanks alliswell - really helpful. We've agreed to the behavioural analyst after a good meeting yesterday. Her role will be to observe him at nursery with the staff and other kids, assess the effectiveness of the nursery's existing strategies and then recommend some new ones they can try. They promise she is not there to label or criticise but we shall see... I've also got some books from the library on positive parenting and gentle techniques to diffuse anger and avoid meltdowns etc. which seem really good and I'm hoping to start implementing some of these techniques from tomorrow. He had a good day at nursery today, apparently after a good night's sleep last night, so the two are deifnitely linked! Hope is not yet lost ;-)

Sleep has such a big impact. My son is not a great sleeper on the nights when he sleeps well things are so much better. Hope you get some good practical tips on what you can do. I used to write down the 'good' things that my son did, said, during the days and remind him of them from time to time. He really liked it. Despite all the ups and downs of having a lively little boy I wouldn't swop him for anything. Writing down some of the positive, funny things that had happened and he did helped me to become aware of not focussing overly on tauntrums and aggression. When I really thought about it the nice, gentle, funny things he did and said I realised how much they outweigh the other. I also read research stating toddlers get 4x more attention from misbehaving than behaving.

Brilliant idea - nursery did also suggest a notebook for recording all the positives, which we could share and would help him with the link between nursery and home. My mum is very about all this as in "her day", he'd have "got a slap" and would be quick "not to be a brat". Helpful. Not.

webminx rest assured there is no industry building up and taking advantage of children's behaviour. The support children get is generally at the expense of local authorities and they are not keen at all to be doling out more money at the moment

It is significant that the usual behaviour management strategies are not working on your DS. That alone is a good reason for his behaviour to be observed and assessed.

The aim of the assessment will be to identify things he finds challenging and offer strategies to make it easier for him to offer more appropriate behaviour. Nobody is going to be setting out to label your son. Assessments for developmental disorders are long (months and years, not weeks) and very, carefully managed to ensure that children only get a diagnosis that is accurate, justified and useful to them.

You will have ultimate control and can stop the process at any time that you feel uncomfortable. Unless there is a serious child protection concern, parents' permission has to be sought every step of the way and, if they withdraw that permission it all stops. I've worked with children who desperately needed support and intervention from other agencies and the parents refused permission so it just didn't happen.

Focus on the positives and remember that whatever happens in terms of assessment, your gorgeous little boy will still be the same person.

It sounds like he's in a really great nursery who are taking exactly the right approach. Work with them and your DS's world will be all the better for it.

Thanks - really appreciate all the input. Just had a really nice day with him which was a lovely reminder that we can have fun together! Onwards and upwards!

Hi minx, saw your thread earlier in active cons and didn't get a chance to read it - but I came across this later on and thought of it again. Having read your thread I'm not sure it's applicable but maybe it might give you some different approaches to try.
peacefulparent.com/680/