Ineffective parenting (hmm, a bit long)

[PepperGrinder]

I have a 9 year old boy and things have been like this forever. Just to set the scene, we are absolutely non-violent parents, there is no violence in his life, dh and I speak respectfully, are affectionate, and know our way around parenting advice.

Nevertheless, despite pulling ds up on his behaviour nearly every time it is violent or unacceptable, we find that he isn't able in some way to learn what not to do. If there is a stone, he will throw it, and not think about where it lands. It is the throwing that he is compelled by; he isn't aiming to harm. Same with sticks. He wants to hit something. If that thing is a person, he will do it. It isn't anger, it's almost like he doesn't see the person. Telling him not to do it makes little difference, and consequences have never really worked with him. He only seems to react if we go completely over the top and shout and ban him from everything for a week/month. Even then he will shrug it off later.

While this is easy to explain away in a four year old (doesn't understand consequences/not fully empathetic yet/whatever/keep plugging away) it is worrying that it's only getting a little better by this age. Right now it's poking and pushing and stepping on feet. We can punish him and explain until we are hoarse that people do not like this, it does not make them like you or want to laugh and play, it is annoying and it does not stop him. Why can he not understand and see that he needs to try to stop?

We have always always been keen to give him (not over the top but realistic) praise for the good things he does (of which there are some, or many, depending on the day) and point up good behaviour and thinking about others and behaving with respect and now, being able to stop himself. I know he likes this. It does not stop the need for attention for the other, frankly bad behaviour, though.

I recently found out that a good friend has been saying that he is like this because we never tell him off. I'm actually furious (and hurt) at that because it's patently, visibly not true: some days I feel like all I've done is tell him off for everything, even things that other, better-natured children can do with nobody narrowing their eyes at them. We have clear boundaries and have not changed them. He is not allowed to hurt people and he should behave kindly and respectfully.

However it has made me realise that whatever we are doing is not enough, it is not stopping the behaviour, and we need to be more effective.

So please could I have some advice, particularly from people who have challenging children (it's honestly no use to me if you have a child who gets upset at the thought of having done wrong and therefore tries to put things right!). Obviously there's something up with his emotional development, but what?

I don't know if it would work, but have you considered finding ways of channelling his urges.

If he likes throwing stuff, introduce him to cricket or field athletics. It will improve his throwing aim and make him think about what he is throwing at or where he is throwing. (Maybe)

I think it could use up some energy
The bigger problem though is that we can see that other children don't just carry on regardless of what is said and done...don't know how to fix that

Obviously there's something up with his emotional development, but what?

This makes me think you need to ask for a referral for a neurodevelopmental assessment.

You're clearly using appropriate strategies to manage his behaviour and, if they are not effective, there must be a reason. This isn't always about parenting.

Have his school expressed any concerns? If not this doesn't rule out the need for an assessment because some children can mask enormous difficulties within the school environment, then let them out as aggression at home.

If you had concerns about any other area of his health and well-being you'd approach the medical profession for information and advice and you need to do the same with this problem. You don't know what is going on so turn to someone who may be able to help you find out.

Thanks Goldmandra. I'm not really sure what that sort of assessment is.
The school seem concerned about him in some ways, but they too are putting in the same effort and problems keep occurring. So he is flagged up as someone to keep an eye on and we are on the same page, really. They don't think he needs an ed psych. They are generally very positive about him and he's doing well academically. But yes they have a similar problem with his behaviour. and similarly no idea how to change it

Neurodevelopmental just means brain development really. They look at the child's development from birth, do different screening tests, possibly play assessments, observe them in school, get views from other professionals that may see them and look for things like dyspraxia, ASD, ADHD and probably lots of other things I have no idea even exist.

A paediatrician or CAMHS can request the assessment after seeing the child and parents and discussing what they think they need help with. They can also offer alternative strategies to parents and refer to other professionals like Occupational Therapists.

It was through one of these assessments that I came to realise that my DD1 has Asperger's Syndrome. Up until that point I would have sworn she didn't have any neurodevelopmental problems and laughed at anyone who suggested that her difficulties were any more than being withdrawn and sensitive. It really opened my eyes to how different our family life was from other people's.

Now I understand her difficulties I can help her much more effectively. It's empowered me as a parent whereas before I was doing all the 'right' things and nothing was working.

Teaching kids not to do something is always tricky – best way is to teach them what to do instead, but that can take time and some serious mental agility! So rather than “don’t throw the stone” things like “put the stone down” or even “throw it at that tree” or “let’s look for a really good target, then see if you can hit it” or “let’s check – is it safe to throw?” usually work better. If you just need him to put the stone down now (or put it in his pocket for later!) then sometimes a count-to-three or a countdown from 10 can work – worked very well for my DS, who has a bit of a processing delay. And I’m sure I got some looks for my “you can hit the tree twice more – once more – now put the stick down – very good!” but it always worked for us and it was a lot safer than trying to wrestle a stick off him.

Practice looking for safe things to throw stones at or to hit with sticks, and safe places to do it, and praise and encourage.

And I would put a negative consequence on anything that endangers (or hurts) other people. Not necessarily a huge one, just something to emphasise the message. It might be as simple as “you threw that stone when other kids were near, we are leaving the park now”. (Which you are probably doing anyway.) It might not have much immediate effect but it’s a long slow learning process, and a steady consistent mild punishment is better than big threats.

And I agree with goldmandra about going to the GP and asking about an assessment for your DS.

PS I don't mean to imply that your parenting is ineffective compared to most parents. Just that some kids need to have those everyday strategies adapted specially for them, and those were some of the ways we had to adapt for my DS, since you asked for suggestions from those of us who parent more difficult kids!

Don't worry, I understood! And thank you for posting, it is exactly what I need.
I agree about adapted strategies. However more long term I worry about him (secondary school...in relationships etc) and our ability to get this important thing through his skull. [long suffering face] The slow learning process seems endless.
If good friends are losing patience then we have a long way to go, I think.

Pepper, does he manage his behavior better with other people? Fastest way to figure out is it straightforward ignoring parents is to have him observed on similar activities without you. Can he go on the same walk with a friend and parent or fave auntie. Have them observe what his responses are to their requests to please not do that. Agree with other advice to rephrase. Maybe go to school and GP for advice.

As he’s nine and progress is so very slow, now would be a good time to get any investigations done. That way if he does need some extra support in secondary school, or just to cope with the transition, there’s time to put help in place. Secondary school can be a lot more demanding.

We can’t diagnose online but your DS is gently pushing some of my buttons for mild autism-spectrum issues – his difficulties in treating people “as people” and with maintaining physical boundaries do sound a bit like my DS. If he does have an ASC or similar, then social-skills therapy might help a lot, and you might be able to use “social stories” to help him interact without the pushing and poking.

I get the impression that schools hold back on the ed psych because there is so much demand. Also ed psychs tend to focus on education issues and only on social or behaviour issues if they affect school. The school only referred us to an ed psych because some of my DS’s behaviour was outright dangerous and they couldn’t have kept him in school without a lot of support. So for a child who isn’t causing havoc in the classroom and whose education is progressing OK you may be better asking for a referral to CAMHS via the GP. (We asked for both but it was CAMHS who did the investigation) Though this may vary in different places.

He can't understand because it doesn't impact him in any way.

What happens when he does it?