3yo evening meal struggles

[omama]

I realise there is a thread running on similar lines at mo but DS is a year older & I am beginning to worry this will never end....

DS loves his breakfast (usually cereal), fruit, & generally eats ok at lunch (typically cheese/jam sandwich, crackers, beans/spaghetti on toast) but has never been a great eater at tea time. This issue, however, only seems to occur at home.

At nursery (1 day/week) he eats pretty well - chilli & rice, shepherds, pasta bake, curry, pie etc , and also eats his veggies, no quibbles. I put this down to peer pressure

At MIL's (1 day/week) he is offered things they know he will like eg sausages/nuggets/chicken pie & gets rewarded with sweets if he eats his mashed potato with hidden cauli (which indeed he does every week without fail)

At home however, we offer him his plate of tea, & pretty much every day, he looks at it, & either says he doesn't want it or has one bite & says he is finished. 5 days out of 7 he eats nothing for his tea & goes to bed on an empty tummy.

He of course likes all the crappy foods you don't want your children to eat (chips/nuggets etc), aside from that at the moment the only 2 meals he will actually eat are sausages or quiche. And even then he only eats that item & leaves the rest. He doesn't really like sauces, & refuses to eat rice, pasta, potatoes and vegetables. (He hasn't really eaten any of these foods at home since he was about 13 months old, though he eats them elsewhere & even told me he likes them).

We limit snacks to one in the morning & nothing in the afternoon, & are also careful about how much liquid he drinks, offering nothing within an hour of teatime. For the last year we've followed all the suggestions for faddy eaters (after seeing HV) i.e. offer new foods alongside something familiar, serve tiny portions, don't comment on what he is eating, if he refuses take it away without question & wait until the next mealtime.

However, he's recently started trying to negotiate with us at the table, saying 'can I have something else instead of this?'. We usually say 'if you are hungry then there is your dinner' & try to leave it at that, then he starts asking for fruit. Its so hard not to get drawn into negotiations when he asks repeatedly - if we say 'eat your dinner & then you can have some fruit' he has one bite & asks again, & then we are getting sucked in.

HV advised we should offer fruit regardless of whether DS ate his meal or not, since it is healthy & we don't want to be offering food as reward, however I struggle with this as DS isn't stupid - if he says no to his meal then he still gets his fruit, what incentive has he got to eat the meal?

I'm just really struggling with it all at the moment. He's not gaining weight (been same weight for the last year 29lb - 25th centile) & is now much smaller than a lot of his peers, even the girls. He is constantly hounding me all day long for food - this drives me nuts, and I spend all day saying 'when its snacktime/lunchtime/teatime'. He he must surely be hungry, but yet he still doesn't eat his tea? . I'm starting to wonder if I should actually just give him food whenever he asks i.e. feed on demand? Is that what other people do?

I can only guess this whole thing is a control thing, since he will eat the foods elsewhere - but seriously, when is it gonna end?! Its frustrating the hell out of me!

I also feel like we're stuck in a rut with the same old meals week in week out. There's no wonder DS is refusing his meals, he's probably bored stiff of them - I know I am. Trouble is, DH is also a bit of a faddy eater, so in trying to cater to both of their tastes, there are lots of meals we never cook because there'd only be me who eats them. There are also lots of foods that DS only ever sees me eat, never DH. He's not really questioned it yet, but its only a matter of time before he starts noticing & says 'well Daddy's not eating that so I'm not going to either'. I feel like we are really limiting DS's exposure to new foods - & if he doesn't see them, how can he try them? Is there any wonder he is becoming so picky? What can I do?

Oh god, sorry this is so long I got a bit carried away with my rant. If you've made it this far & have any pearls of wisdom/tips you can share, or even if its just to tell me it will (or won't get better) it'd be very much appreciated.

Haven't got any pearls of wisdom sorry. This could have been my post though 2.5 years ago. Dd is now 6 and is still fussy, still small but things are much better.

I don't agree with your HVs advise either, my dd would quite happily just eat fruit every night if it meant she didn't have to eat her tea.

Can you have a word with your DH about his fussiness? It really can't be helping. My DH overeats. Not the same I know but before we had the children he was terrible. He really sorted himself out before dc1 was born and although he's not perfect, he is much better. Children really pick up on the smallest thing though and my DS thinks its ok to be greedy because men are greedy

Your DS does sound a little more hardcore than my dd though. My dd has only been to bed on an empty stomach about 3 times. Could you see your GP and ask for a referral to a Paed Dietician?

Have you read My Chile Won't Eat by Carlos Gonzalez too?

My Child, even.

Thanks for the replies

Jilted - am glad to hear things should get a bit better eventually - tho the thought of another 3 years of this is hard to stomach (pardon the pun). We are already awaiting Paed referral as DS has unconfirmed cows milk allergy/intolerance & we've moved gp - they want to have him tested. So I'm already hoping we can push for a dietician off the back of that as its yet another thing which restricts what we can feed ds.

No I haven't read that book so will be taking a look at it in a few mins.

Isinside - interesting that your dt will eat the veg on its own before anything else. I suspect my ds would just cry if that was all I put infront of him, but I'm willing to give it a try! We already leave sauce off things like rice/pasta, instead serve it next to it, but he still won't eat it.

There are no fallouts at mealtimes, & we don't sit hounding him to eat, or get cross if he doesn't. If he says he doesn't want it, we remind him once that there won't be anything else until the next meal & that he may feel hungry if he doesn't have this, & ask if he is sure. If he says yes we say ok & take the food away. There is no more confrontation than that - but perhaps that is too much already?

The one thing I really don't know how to handle is that he won't even try. The theory is to say nothing so mealtimes don't become a battle, but then how do we get him to try without actually asking him? He will ask us what the unfamiliar item is & so we tell him & he turns his nose up. Each time he does this we remind him of a time when he actually did try a new food & liked it, in hopes it might encourage him to try, but if he says no we accept it as we don't want to pressure him too much. Is there a better way we could deal with this?

I saw the HV again today & she wasn't much help really except to suggest we see the GP again. I am going to make an appointment to follow up this referral & talk about his meal issues, & some anxiety issues he is also having as I'm beginning to wonder if its all related (some sort of sensory processing thing?)

We don't try to get our dd to try a new food. We serve it up, usually with something she will eat, and ignore. If she asks what it s we tell her, then change the subject. Our dd ate everywhere else but home too. Once I found that out is the day I realised it was us that had the problem and needed to change, not her.

Ok fair point. I am quite willing to acknowledge the issue is how we are approaching things, but hell our child is particularly stubborn, a trait he gets from us both . We did so long of no comments whatsoever & things barely improved & I can see we are slipping back into the negotiations & asking him to eat which clearly isnt helping.

I've started to read that book you recommended, am a little troubled by the generalisation that all mothers feed their children until they are crying because their stomach hurts from too much food.

I can see how this may apply to a child who is being spoonfed by a worried mother (although it has never ever happened in this house as ds was blw) but how is it relevant to a 3 yo who makes his own choices about what he eats?

He has a decent & healthy breakfast & lunch & is very definitely hungry at teatime, just chooses not to eat what we offer, then hounds us for the rest of the evening for something else to eat. Please tell me it is worth my while continuing

Have you tried switching your lunch time meals and tea time meals around? If he usually eats well at lunchtime you could serve up your usual planned tea type meal e.g. Pasta, shepards pie etc tec and have a sandwich/beans on toast for tea?

That does work for us Pas on the days I can remember to go it

I think switching round the way you try to bribe them with pudding/ fruit can be good - it worked well for us - I.e. instead of saying "you have to eat all your veg if you want fruit for pudding", we used to say "look, you can do what you like, you don't have to eat your veg, but if you don't, I'm afraid we won't be able to give you any pudding, because only people who eat their veg are allowed pudding." It's a small difference but has two good effects - 1) the veg (or main course) requirement becomes an undeniable law and therefore cannot be argued with and 2) it makes them feel a bit like they're in charge.

Why don't you give him an afternoon snack? It has no bearing on whether he eats tea, he's always after food and you're worried about weight? My 3 year old has one. Something like banana, yoghurt, cheese, hummus/breadstick?

Then a light tea which is just something small so there's less pressure on him and you don't worry about what he isn't eating?

stark have just read your foment to DH who said "no, no dd does not play by those rules. We've tried that and it doesn't fucking work and I'm dammed if I do know what would fucking work".

Stubbornness seems to run in our family too omama

Have been through something similar. DS is also 25thC, and sometimes just didn't eat anything. I was always told he ate well at nursery, and frankly didn't believe it. The only things he would eat at home were fish fingers, jacket potatoes or toast. It used to drive me INSANE when people said "it's a phase" etc. Over the last couple of months we have had a massive, massive improvement (DS is just 4). Honestly I don't know what has worked or if it is just a case of him getting older, but he has - much to my astonishment - somehow just got better. There are a couple of things that may have made a difference (or perhaps it is just coincidence):

1. We tried a thing called 'tiny tastes' - it is a very very simple programme where you try a new food and have a 'tiny taste' of it every day for a fortnight and get a sticker on a chart for doing so. Honestly I'm not sure how helpful this has been - we only did it properly with two foods: pepper and cucumber (!!). But since doing this he has suddenly become willing to try new things - we often talk about having 'just a tiny taste' and if he tries, he gets lots of praise and if he doesn't want to I just say 'well we will try again another day'.
2. He moved nursery to a place with a greater variety of food. Things like chilli, curry, noodles (the old place was much more basic meat and veg).

In the last three days (for example) he has eaten three meals he wouldn't have considered even 2 months ago, at home, for lunch or tea: fish pie; veg stir fry with noodles; and bacon and eggs!

So, I can't say anything terribly useful (except, perhaps try tiny tastes) but it will get better if you believe it will. I have learnt a lesson for DC2 to just ignore any faddiness and keep serving up whatever and not make as much of a fuss as I did previously with DC1.

He still sometimes has utterly teeny portions in comparison with other children btw, but now he at least try things I find it easier to be relaxed about that. He's small so of course he's not going to eat as much as his taller bigger friends.

Thanks so much for all the replies

Pourquoi - wld love to try switching ds' meals so he has the bigger meal at lunch (this is how he eats at nursery & mil's) but I have issues - 1) DH would still want a cooked tea after work & 2) we would no longer have a family mealtime where we all have the same food, so not able to lead by example - which is more important?

stark - like the suggestion, tho we never insist ds eats all of his tea anyway. I will def discuss with dh how we can we can reword our response when he asks for fruit.

jilted - am persevering but really struggling with this book. We arent having hours of screaming & crying/fraught mealtimes. Nor are we insisting he eats everything. The book says if they arent eating its because they arent hungry, so why does he then ask for fruit instead? I simply do not know the correct way to respond to such a request.

creature - we stopped afternoon snack to see if he ate better at tea & initially he did, but that was shortli might just start afternoon snacks up again.

Sorry hit post too soon. Meant to say that was shortlived so we might just try an afternoon snack again

Savvy - ikwym about it driving you insane - me too. He's been this way for 2 years now & in some ways I think I need to accept its just how he is. You are also right about trying not to compare with his peers, his friend eats everything & anything but is a lot taller/bigger than him so there's no wonder. Am glad to hear you are having some improvements now tho, there's hope for us yet!

You could do him a larger lunch and he still has the same as you at dinner but a smaller portion

Know what you mean but my dd will try new foods if she is hungry enough and will finish it, its been a long journey though and she is the queen of negotiation! I take it to mean that if he's not eating, then he's not hungry enough for what's in front of him. I clear away after about 20 mins but save her meal if she's hardly eaten any or its untouched and pleas for food later just get met with something like "I've saved your tea, do you want to eat it now?".

Have you tried getting him involved with making dinner with you? Maybe have a look at some recipe books together, chat about what you could have, shop for ingredients - let him choose some veg & have him help you cook - I get my 3yo DS to wash veg, and give him something like a mushroom and small blunt knife to chop up, mix things, get things out of the cupboard etc. He might just be so pleased with himself for 'cooking dinner' that he eats it all up!

The other thing - easy to say but almost impossible to do - is to try not to sweat it too much. My DH still talks about "the battle of the pea" - I insisted that DS ate a single pea; he refused; I insisted more - we all ended up in tears; it was terrible. He's 5 now and still doesn't really like peas but basically eats a pretty varied diet. They really do go through phases and it sounds to me like your approach of not negotiating too much is definitely the right one.

swap round lunch and tea. So give him sarnies at tea time, and a hot lunch.

Mine have all been too tired and therefore too grumpy/stubborn to eat in the evenings, so we have always done a hot lunch (often leftovers from the night before) and then small bits and bobs for tea - sandwiches, yogurt, grapes etc.

Hi omama, not seen your posts for a while, see the sleep is all good now!

I have to say bribery and corruption work pretty well for my DD: I once got her to eat a whole avocado by giving her a crisp after every bite so shoot me down. And I frequently say she won't be allowed pudding if she's not hungry enough to eat x.

I had huge battles til about 14 months (until I chilled out and she grew out of shortlived very fussy phase) but although she is very particular she's an excellent eater now. I got her trying stuff by askin her to have just one lick. We then progress to one chew. Similar to the tiny tastes thing I guess.

If I were you I'd take the advice of reinstate afternoon snack, and swap lunch and dinner if that works for your family, and try to pander to his quiche whims at least once a week. I don't find joining in the cooking makes DD more likely to eat but she does at least know a lot about it now! Can you grow veg? For some reason DD has taken against carrots despite her having grown her own, but she's really taken to green beans, courgettes and lettuce with great excitement because daddy grew them!

Jilted - we also save ds' tea in case he wants to have it later but he never ever does.

tripple - yes he helps with shopping, & enjoys stirring veg/sauces & baking. He hasn't eaten what he's helped cook yet tho, unless its cake/cookies of course

Hi fifi - yes we're ok on the sleep front these days hope you are too. Bribery works great with grandma, but I cant bring myself to do it

Today he has eaten a bowl of cereal, a few grapes & strawberries, a slice of cheese on toast & a breadstick for his afternoon snack. Is that excessive? Would he be so full that he isn't hungry for tea? I made chilli & rice for tea, made zero comments, he ate 2 strands of grated cheese off the top & chopped his green bean up & that was it. He got down from the table. Now he keeps asking if he can have a banana & i am sticking with the same reply: do you want your chilli & rice? He's been crying so I know he's hungry (why else would he be asking?) but hasn't given in yet & I feel bloody mean since I am now witholding what he actually does want to eat. Does this constitute using food as punishment?

Ds goes through phases of favouring different mealtimes. When he does that I switch hot and cold meals around depending on what he's favouring. I get him a platter of different brightly coloured and healthy finger foods I know he will eat, like cherry tomatoes, ham, sweetcorn etc. He seems to like the choice, gives him some control. If he eats nothing he gets no pudding, but I don't make a big deal out of it. If he asks for pudding I just say no, you had no room in your tummy for dinner, so there can't be room for pudding either. We do use bribery though if needed and will divide his dinner in half and say that if he eats half, he can have some fruit. We also make a game of it, playing on his defiant
Streak, so we will say "dont you dare eat that!" And smile at him. We can get him to eat his veg that way usually. He smiles back, picks up his spoon and watches us fein surprise when he eats another spoonful.

Apparently it's really, really common for children to eat food at one place and not another. Ds has gone through phases of , for example, refusing to eat scrambled egg at his cm's, but really enjoying it at home. Or picking at his sandwiches at home, but scoffing them at his cm's.

You need a psychology degree to work out how to get them to eat!

You sound like you have reduced the pressure to eat but it is still there.

You need to look at this another way.

Trying to get him to eat things and trying to get him to try new things is unsuccessful. Now you have worked that out you need to stop. Whatever else you do you know that putting pressure on him isn't working.

Then you need to remember that he will need to experience a long period of no pressure to eat before he feels himself to be under less pressure. The fact that you don't try to encourage him to eat today won't make him forget that you did it yesterday or last week or even last month.

The fact that your DS eats at nursery isn't about peer pressure. There is no pressure from other pre-school aged children to eat. It is because the staff have no emotional investment in how much he eats.

You may be concerned about his weight but you are using that to justify in your own mind doing something which you know is counter-productive. i.e. trying to persuade him and make bargains with him to eat.

If the only food that is available to him is the meal you have cooked do not discuss what will be available afterwards. telling him that he can have fruit if he eats his meal is putting pressure on him and handing him control over whether he complies with your wishes.

IF YOU EXPRESS NO WISHES HE CANNOT HAVE CONTROL OVER WHETHER TO COMPLY WITH THEM.

Express no concern whatsoever over what he eats. If he messes around or misbehaves in any way, tell him he will have to leave the table. Sitting at the table to join in a family meal is a privilege earned by good behaviour. If he tries to negotiate tell him he can choose to eat his dinner or get down.

Don't ever offer a reward for eating anything. It makes the child perceive eating as a task which must be completed rather than a pleasure.

Don't ask him more than once if he wants his food. If he wants it he needs to sit nicely and eat it. If he can't do that he needs to get down and go away from the table. This changes the focus from you wanting him to eat to you wanting him to demonstrate good manners but not being interested in what he eats.

Try to imagine that every time you try to persuade him to eat something you are actually reducing the amount he can eat. Every request for him to try something is denying him food. You are making it harder for him to eat by trying to persuade him to do it.

Sorry for the rant but I've seen this many times with childminded children and you have to realise that a battle has to have two sides. They can only win if you are engaging. You can only give in if you are already fighting.

Stop fighting, put the food in front of him and leave him to it, not just for a day or a week but for however long it takes or until someone tells you that he has a developmental disorder which requires a different approach.

Was there something on the plate you know he will eat? My dd is a bit hit and miss with chilli but I know she will always eat the rice. If I'm not sure about a food I'm offering I always try to make sure she has a little of something she will eat. Doesn't always work though.

Been thinking about this. We usually meal plan and each child gets to choose at least one evening meal in the week, so that should be one stress free night and we used to give him something he liked on a Saturday night and we would have something later when he was in bed.

At 3 my DS only ever wanted to each cheese sandwiches, now he's 9 he will eat virtually anything so I'm hoping dd will be the same.